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FOREWORD 
, and share it with your like-minded fellow gamers to do so as well! You can sign here:
TABLE OF CONTENTS 
FOREWORD 
NEW! 
I. MAJOR UPDATES 
UPDATE 18 – NEW ARROWHEAD CEO ACKNOWLEDGES COLLECTION OF FEEDBACK WHICH INCLUDES PLEA TO REPLACE GAMEGUARD
II. SOLUTION PROPOSAL FOR ARROWHEAD INSTEAD OF GAMEGUARD 
III. ORIGINAL POST 
IV. THE AIM OF THIS DISCUSSION 
V. GAMEGUARD ISSUE DOCUMENTATION 
VI. USEFUL POSTS & FURTHER READING
Правила і настанови обговорень
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What are you not understanding about that?
Also you ignored the literal SysAdmin that popped in to correct this BS.
Why?
We provided answers for you - all of which YOU conveniently ignored. For example you ignored my reply to the uninstaller about which you keep posting over and over again. In just your last post you said you "don't care" about the rest of Flurry's well structured post. Here:
Since you wave your hands at our answers and any of our concerns which are well documented by evidence and try to devalue them at every turn don't be surprised if it will be you who will be ignored moving forward.
You did not provide evidence you provided anecdotes.
Real evidence would acknowledge things that counter it and explain them.
Once AGAIN:
To put it another way:
Believing these sources is the exact same thing as believing all those alien stories coming out of south america lately.
Never mind that the laws of physics say aliens are not living long enough to come here, never mind that governments would be all over that ♥♥♥♥; no forget all that. Some guy posted a vid and someone else made a post on a board so let's believe them! that's evidence!
See how that sounds?
Now watch this:
Never mind that SysAdmins and people much more informed than you are telling you you're wrong, never mind that it has been used for over 20 years and the world hasn't ended due to it, never mind that Steam has policies against malware on their store; no forget all that! Some indian guy with a hard-on for VMs made a vid and a couple boards used the word invasive! that's evidence!
Asking people with less than in-depth knowledge of the topic that you want to research results in inaccurate, feeling-based, data.
Just because people have not observed obvious cheating does not mean it doesn't exist. Nor was this topic about the effectiveness of anticheats (which they really aren't in the days of DMA and optical based cheats in e.g. FPS)
There was an interesting topic on rampant cheaters in racing games recently - giving a slight % increase in e.g. grip being undetectable by players watching a replay without looking at the factual performance data.
Same thing with being hacked: just because people haven't seen a big popup saying they are hacked doesn't mean their system can't be compromised.
Fact is that nProtect has had a blatant security flaw in the past - one that was easy to exploit.
So it is, in my opinion, only fair for people to be weary and possibly abstain from playing a game - a luxury item - for their own peace of mind.
Again... you don't need to security-audit an anti-cheat driver to reverse engineer an MMO server. so they probably have not done so.
if anything they removed the calls from the client to driver as quickly as they could to get a cleaner image of the client / server communication.
do I know they haven't? no. do you? no. but you are portraying it as a fact.
have this historical evidence of their security flaw then:
https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2005-0295
yes, it was fixed.
yes, no other flaws have since been reported.
but the emphasis is *reported*.
the games you have provided a list to have not been relevant in the grand scheme of cheating or hacking a system and as such also not relevant for security researchers / professionals / hackers to take a look at them without getting paid for it.
it's just like in the early 2000s "Macs are secure" - no. they were just not relevant enough to be a target.
I never said it wasn't "necessary" or went into anything about its effectiveness or lack thereof.
But you miss the point of these posts - it's about the potential security risk of such kernel access drivers, from a company that shipped a blatant flaw in the past - see above for the relevant CVE.
My question still stands: why does someone need to look for a tool to remove a driver when the application that has installed it is removed? Why does the driver not have its own uninstaller? Why is the user never informed of any of that?
I did not engage with nor cite those sources so the question was not relevant to me.
On the other side I provided with you with a relevant CVE that establishes rather blatant disregard for safety by nProtect in the past - that you ignored.
Not sure where I shifted the subject when I answered your post point for point?
you argued about 15-22 years of this anticheat being used... I answered there was less of a market for cheats or hacks when those games using it were actually relevant.
you argued they were still relevant citing a steamDB list with games that use it... I skimmed the list - actually threw it into a spreadsheet just now, just for you - the combined peak of 212776 is less than the daily average of games that are "relevant" to cheaters - or hackers.
you argued freeshard-programmers looked into it... I answered that's not necessarily true since the driver has little to no relevance to that.
you brought up the sega tool... I argued it shouldn't even be necessary to search for a tool to remove a driver that keeps getting left behind, and posing a security risk, after uninstalling the accompanying software.
Very well constructed.
Think about what you are saying:
"20 years of gaming and being able to go back and look at 20 years of boards where people would have complained means nothing because it's possible no one reported it. for 20 years."
I cannot expect a serious conversation after a statement that insane; especially with no evidence to back it. This is literally conspiracy theory mentality (Just because I can't prove it doesn't mean it's not happening!
Good luck with being afraid or whatever
we would have a combined peak sample size of < 300000 over 66 games you provided a list for.
cheating is again none of my concern. but even if it was, and lets pretend that peak was just one game. seeing a peak of 300000... what would that mean in terms of people observing any form of cheating?
in an MMO having 300000 people would be spread out so reports of cheating would be sparse at best. some of those may even be contributed to things other than cheating.
not to mention that we would have to look at average user numbers which would be far lower - not everyone is playing at the same time once the hype dies down.
from what I can see of those games most are MMOs anyway - which generally have less cheaters due to the server being authoritative in most cases.
I provided an example - you didn't read - that cheating in racing games is for example extremely hard to spot unless you dive down into the factual data, virtually impossible in the moment or in a visual replay.
my concern is still with security.
now how would any of those 300000, who probably have little to knowledge what goes on in their system anyway, be able to tell their system has been compromised?
you'd get close to 0 reports - if you are lucky and get any.
it's funny that you speak of serious conversation when your first post in this thread was already full of rage and insults - steam was nice enough to put hearts for some. ♥
also a rootkit - yes.
more intrusive - not sure how it can be more intrusive when a rootkit already has access to everything.
every anticheat and drm will add overhead - which is why pirates usually get the "better product". at least in terms of performance.
not sure about crashes that are linked with it - can be dependent on the game / implementation I suppose but a valid concern.
the point is that kernel level drivers need to be trusted.
would you trust a kernel level driver that I sent you? why not? it's just like EAC... just written by me.
would you trust a kernel level driver by a company that had a blatant security flaw in one of their earlier versions? or does that leave a bitter taste?
some people will not touch EAC because of the link to China through Tencent owning part of EPIC games.
you have many many more kernel level drivers on your system - any logitech / razer / whatever peripherals? the difference to something like nProtect is the relevancy to hackers. a driver that is installed on millions and millions of systems will catch the eye of security researchers / professionals - both malicious and not. they get prodded constantly even if the manufacturer does not pay for an audit.
people are free to trust who they would like. though I wouldn't shut down or make fun of those concerns with anecdotal "but nothing happened yet" or "it works fine on these rather irrelevant games (in the context of how much relevancy they have to cheat-engineers / hackers in terms of cost / gain)" in any case.
I also want to add to this, that you are complimenting my point perfectly here. I listed the average daily user numbers of CS2 and TF2 precisely for the reason that considering the top seller status of Helldivers II, it can be expected to be played by a lot of people, therefore it will be a magnet for these despicable cheat makers and possibly even other malicious actors.
That is why we need a more trustworthy and safer anti-cheat, not this Gameguard with it's bad history.
you should look into cheats that use DMA and optical detection if you think that "good cheat providers" haven't already moved beyond kernel-level.
there is also the question of necessity of an anticheat in a single player / coop game. beyond protecting microstransactions I mean.
how would you know if anyone in here is not a software engineer or otherwise involved in computer security without them telling you?
but honestly it doesn't matter because you are ignoring the fact people who know their ♥♥♥♥ better than any of us have reverse engineered, and created private game servers for games that use Gameguard like PSOBB.
Are you seriously going to sit there and say that people who reverse engineer servers to build their own don't know what's going on in their system??
That was worth hitting Show next to Blocked User. Thank you for that laugh.