Thrusters are simply way too weak for their volume

[Yurikano]

I am building a fairly small titanium/naonite ship (70kt mass currently). My aim is to get yaw and pitch to 1 rad/s.

The entire ship is titanium except generator and battery which are naonite.

For yaw, I am adding a 8x8x7 directional thruster.

The thruster is optimally positioned (tail of ship) and correctly rotated (right/left).

This huge ugly monstrosity only adds 0.63 rad/s of yaw.

https://i.imgur.com/eGQt7Z0.png

As an alternative, adding a equally sized gyro array in a correct position for yaw (above center of mass) adds only 0.59 rad/s and costs something like 2x more power.

8x8x7 is larger than any other ship component currently present and is still apparently not large enough.

Why are thrusters so weak?

Do developers think that struggling so much to get a controllable ship is fun?

It is not.

This is just depressing.

[Vehementi]

Your ship is quite long and will be hard to turn yeah. BTW it doesn't matter where you put the gyro. Flip the gyro to the roll axis and see how much faster it lets you roll than yaw

[Yurikano]

> BTW it doesn't matter where you put the gyro

Here is a simple example of the contrary:

8x8x7 yaw gyro in optimal positioning: above/below center of mass - 0.59 rad/s

https://i.imgur.com/neBQQUd.png

Same gyro, non-optimal positioning: 0.55 rad/s

https://i.imgur.com/HPtDNRg.png

[Yurikano]

> Your ship is quite long and will be hard to turn yeah.

This does not seem to be the case either.

In fact, the ship as it is currently is not long enough to bring out the full thruster output.

If I extend the length of the ship with 25m of framework and put the same 8x8x7 yaw thruster on its end, the output increases from 0.63 rad/s to 0.75 rad/s, although the pitch penalty increases by over 200% from -0.1 to -0.32 rad/s.

https://i.imgur.com/ca6QC1R.png

[SivCorp]

Does your thrusters take up over 30% of your ship total volume? That’s what I’ve found is necessary for a maneuverable ship.

[Bobucles]

Gyro position doesn't matter, but weight distribution does. A gigantic wrecking ball hanging way off to the side will require more rotational power than placing that weight in the middle. Gyros are lighter components, so placing them outside your center is fine. You want your denser components like generators and shields towards the center of mass. Pushing your heavy components aside to stuff the gyro in the center is a classic case of paying a dollar to save a penny.

Thrusters are fairly cheap, low maintenance and incredibly weak. A combination of strong generators, inertial dampers and thicc gyros will win any day. 1.0 rotation speed is also incredibly fast at the higher end and the agility components will take up most of your CPU space.

[Yurikano]

Originally posted by SivCorp:

Does your thrusters take up over 30% of your ship total volume? That’s what I’ve found is necessary for a maneuverable ship.

I think more interesting ships could be built in reasonable amount of time if this required percentage was lower.

Originally posted by Bobucles:

Gyro position doesn't matter, but weight distribution does. A gigantic wrecking ball hanging way off to the side will require more rotational power than placing that weight in the middle. Gyros are lighter components, so placing them outside your center is fine. You want your denser components like generators and shields towards the center of mass. Pushing your heavy components aside to stuff the gyro in the center is a classic case of paying a dollar to save a penny.

Thrusters are fairly cheap, low maintenance and incredibly weak. A combination of strong generators, inertial dampers and thicc gyros will win any day. 1.0 rotation speed is also incredibly fast at the higher end and the agility components will take up most of your CPU space.

I did some further testing and it looks like you are right, the gyro positioning in fact does not matter.

I do wish however that the relationship of gyros and of weight distribution was mentioned in build mode somewhere, because I was not aware of it. Thank you for explaining this.

[Cy]

building the outer hull and placing the thrusters have nothing to do with one another for many of us builders.

I and plenty others build the shell 1st and then fill it with functional blocks. Thats maybe the 2nd time that I hear about someone who has difficulties with thrusters.

Also you said your ship got 0.67 rad/s yaw. That is a not a bad value and if your ship is huge you did a great job. Your expectations might be to high

[🦊 Hermit]

Gyros matter when placed next to the centre of mass along the axis which they turn.

So if they adjust pitch, they can indeed be way out from the centre to the left and right, but must be as close to inline with the centre of mass vertically and front-back.

If they do roll, then they can be anywhere between your bow and stern, even right on your nose or tail. But they have to be as central as possible vertically and horizontally.

[Vehementi]

Originally posted by Yurikano:

I do wish however that the relationship of gyros and of weight distribution was mentioned in build mode somewhere, because I was not aware of it. Thank you for explaining this.

It does say on the component that it doesn't matter where on the ship they're placed, which is correct in that context - it doesn't matter like it does with thrusters. But the mass distribution of your ship IN GENERAL matters -- if the ship is long like yours, it'll be hard to yaw but easy to roll.

[Vehementi]

Originally posted by 🦊 Hermit:

Gyros matter when placed next to the centre of mass along the axis which they turn.

No it really does not matter for their functionality, only for the fact that "they are a component with mass". There is no physics simulation of gyros actually doing anything in this game.

[Vehementi]

Originally posted by Cy:

I and plenty others build the shell 1st and then fill it with functional blocks. Thats maybe the 2nd time that I hear about someone who has difficulties with thrusters.

Come on :) Most people especially new people are not using that cool design strategy (which I do now use too). I am playing with 6 new players and most have had questions/problems with thrusters, and a quick search of the discord you and I are on will reveal many questions.

I would also say that a lot of players will be turned off of gyros at first due to their huge energy cost and the intuition that thrusters on the extremities should do the trick and aren't in tune with the meta that you pointed out. Moreover it's not intuitive or obvious that you can place your engines, thrusters, etc. anywhere and cover their exhaust with armor so most people initially build "normal" ships.

[🦊 Hermit]

Originally posted by Vehementi:

Originally posted by 🦊 Hermit:

Gyros matter when placed next to the centre of mass along the axis which they turn.

No it really does not matter for their functionality, only for the fact that "they are a component with mass". There is no physics simulation of gyros actually doing anything in this game.

Try placing pitch gyros either side of the centre of mass on a ship, and see what difference it makes to the ship's pitch stat. Then try placing the same size and orientation gyros on the same ship, but way off towards the tail or way up on the dorsal hull far above the CoM. The difference to pitch stats between the two placement spots will be very large, greatly in favour of the gyros which are in line with the CoM.

Yes they will still have some effect wherever you place them. But lining them up with the CoM as much as possible will allow you to get much better efficiency from them.

[amimai002]

here is how to thrust in 3 simple rules

1. have as much mass as possible in the centre of your ship. if the ship looks like a ball you are doing it right

2. have thrust as close to your ships hull as possible, i generally have thrust directly below my ships armour.

3. have thrust on both sides of the ship, thrust only at the front (or back) are 25% less effective then thrust on both front and back

following these rules you can make thrust take up less then 3% of total volume of the hull (based on what i have on my own designs)

1 and 3 are probably the most important 2 is useful but thrust on struts isn't the best of ideas

[Vehementi]

3% seems outlandish, can you share a workshop design?

[amimai002]

Originally posted by Vehementi:

3% seems outlandish, can you share a workshop design?

that is if you minmax, i prefer ~5% thrusters

here's a quick sample that i use for freight
it an ugly as sin box, but it is pretty manoeuvrable
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2602101494

its 5.08% thrust
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2602103237