Are Steam users going to get the Epic build?

[Sophisticated Gumi-chan]

Epic Games now offers FONV. Because it was free, I decided to grab it and take a look at the game. A lot internally has changed between the Steam version that was last released sometime in July 2011. The build for FONV from Epic was made on May 18th, 2023. It contains significant upgrades internally, as it looks like they used a much more recent compiler. Functions that used to be MBs long are now several KBs. Redundant operations the function would do under multiple circumstances are now use GOTO JMP commands instead of just falling through to the block. I also noticed the game is much more stable. The version ID for Epic is 1.4.0.1338 and for Steam it is 1.4.0.525. It doesn't seem right that we're left in the past because we had used Steam. People who don't grab onto the Epic games free offer between now and June 1st will miss out on a better build of the game. Although, most mod developers like NVSE have stated they will not port their mods to the Epic games version, ESP and ESM mods still work fine and I haven't had much of a problem using them.

[CEPHY]

I don't really see the issue.

As long as my mods work, I don't really care which version I got.

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by Sophisticated Gumi-chan:

Epic Games now offers FONV. Because it was free, I decided to grab it and take a look at the game. A lot internally has changed between the Steam version that was last released sometime in July 2011. The build for FONV from Epic was made on May 18th, 2023. It contains significant upgrades internally, as it looks like they used a much more recent compiler. Functions that used to be MBs long are now several KBs. Redundant operations the function would do under multiple circumstances are now use GOTO JMP commands instead of just falling through to the block. I also noticed the game is much more stable. The version ID for Epic is 1.4.0.1338 and for Steam it is 1.4.0.525. It doesn't seem right that we're left in the past because we had used Steam. People who don't grab onto the Epic games free offer between now and June 1st will miss out on a better build of the game. Although, most mod developers like NVSE have stated they will not port their mods to the Epic games version, ESP and ESM mods still work fine and I haven't had much of a problem using them.

ESP and ESM mods won't work if they rely on script extender plugins/functions, which is a large amount of more modern mods. That also includes most modern UI mods, basic QOL mods like properly functioning sprint, and for pure script extender plugins it includes critical mods like NVTF that are nearly essential at higher resolutions or with texture mods.

It also doesn't allow mods like Mod Limit Fix to function, so even if you do use a large amount of older ESP/ESM only mods, you'll have a pretty hard plugin limit.

Also missing will be graphics extenders like NVR that add AO, shadows, godrays, etc.

You'll also have to use a generic LAA patcher instead of the normal NV 4GB patch, although that's not really a huge issue.

There is a downgrader[www.nexusmods.com] that allows script extender mods to work, but since it's a binary patcher "downgrading" to the Steam version, it reverts any code improvements as a result of the newly compiled version.

Overall, it's not impressive. Especially considering that as of this moment, it also doesn't include HH.

The thing with new versions like this is that a handful of overworked coders at Epic aren't going to be able to recreate 13+ years of talented modders, coders, and artists that have been patching and improving the backend of the game. There's a handful of modders that have the game fully decoded at this point and probably know it better than anyone who ever worked on it. Re-baked versions like this are largely pointless.

[Killibob]

i got a weird stuttering problem on the epic version where the more npc or enemys are on the screen the more it starts to stutter so i guess its not that much better.

[NightmareGats]

I only got it cause its free, but i'll never play that version.
I have almost 200 mods on this version, wont touch the epic version, theres no reason.

[mikaeliby]

Interesting. So will the saves from the Steam version work for the Epic version?

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by mikaeliby:

Interesting. So will the saves from the Steam version work for the Epic version?

As of this moment, no, assuming you have the Ultimate edition on Steam - currently the EGS version doesn't have Honest Hearts, so even if the saves load they will be broken.

[Ladez]

Recompiled game breaking over a decades worth of modding and it doesn't include the best DLC. It's almost funny.

[kdodds]

I got it for one reason and one reason alone, the same reason I get anything on Epic. Reportedly, these "free giveaways" on Epic are supported solely by Epic and the developers still get paid. I can not verify how true that is, just third-hand knowledge. Anyway, I don't like their business practices. It's nothing to do with loyalty to the Steam platform. So, if I get a notice of a giveaway, particularly if it's an indie company or game/company I like to support, I'll grab it. Epic is (again, supposedly, I can't verify) the only one losing money when I do this, since the devs still (supposedly) get paid. And all that's required is their store software on my PC. Let them use me as a user number in stats, I don't care. If anything, it hurts their case against Steam as a "monopoly". Another of their questionable business practices I don't like much.

In short, yes, I grabbed it. But, no, I'll never play it.

[Sophisticated Gumi-chan]

Originally posted by Salamand3r-:

Originally posted by mikaeliby:

Interesting. So will the saves from the Steam version work for the Epic version?

As of this moment, no, assuming you have the Ultimate edition on Steam - currently the EGS version doesn't have Honest Hearts, so even if the saves load they will be broken.

It shows in the DLC list, but when you try to install it, it fails. Probably just Epic sucking ass as a platform. It doesn't seem to be a straight recompile, there's functions that have been reworked internally that are vastly different than the Steam version's. Also, basic changes from the compiler have massive improvements. Faster floating point instructions are now being used, as before they were using the FPU, they are now relying on SSE for their floating point math. At the time, SSE processor were not common in PCs around 2011. However, if you check the Steam hardware stats, near 100% of PCs surveyed have SSE instructions in them now. This results in a massive performance boost in floating point calculations done on the CPU, as you can reference burned-in microcode to the CPU to calculate floats, where as before, they were reliant on the FPU stack and C-based floating point functions.

I don't have enough experience with FONV's engine to determine if this build is or isn't better internally, but I am experienced with x86 assembly. From what I can see in IDA and Cheat Engine, massive improvements have been made.

[Vassago Rain]

Originally posted by Ladez:

Recompiled game breaking over a decades worth of modding and it doesn't include the best DLC. It's almost funny.

Timmy was never the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by Sophisticated Gumi-chan:

Originally posted by Salamand3r-:

As of this moment, no, assuming you have the Ultimate edition on Steam - currently the EGS version doesn't have Honest Hearts, so even if the saves load they will be broken.

It shows in the DLC list, but when you try to install it, it fails. Probably just Epic sucking ass as a platform. It doesn't seem to be a straight recompile, there's functions that have been reworked internally that are vastly different than the Steam version's. Also, basic changes from the compiler have massive improvements. Faster floating point instructions are now being used, as before they were using the FPU, they are now relying on SSE for their floating point math. At the time, SSE processor were not common in PCs around 2011. However, if you check the Steam hardware stats, near 100% of PCs surveyed have SSE instructions in them now. This results in a massive performance boost in floating point calculations done on the CPU, as you can reference burned-in microcode to the CPU to calculate floats, where as before, they were reliant on the FPU stack and C-based floating point functions.

I don't have enough experience with FONV's engine to determine if this build is or isn't better internally, but I am experienced with x86 assembly. From what I can see in IDA and Cheat Engine, massive improvements have been made.

Problem is, they still don't fix basic engine issues like the 64Hz tickrate stutter, 32bit exe, DX9 shared pool, memory handle allocation (which artificially limits plugin count) etc.

And the mods that fix those problems rely on the script extender.

And the patch that allows the script extender to work patches it back down to the Steam version, negating any improvements in the actual game exe from the recompile.

Those fix mods already boost performance in NV by like 3-500% in some instances - this new Epic version doesn't come anywhere close.

You'd be better going over it with lStewieAl or Wall_SoGB, they're both nose deep in NV's code and could give way better information.

Edit: Also, SSE was universal in CPUs of that era. SSE/SIMD was introduced for Intel CPUs back on the Pentium III (literally last century), and the first Althon had SIMD under their 3DNow! umbrella in first gen Athlon chips. They may have access to *newer* SSE now, but they should have had at least basic level stuff previously.

[mikaeliby]

It doesn´t have Honest Hearts? Not particularly "Ultimate" then...

Not taking the steam saves isn´t really an issue. Good time to start anew :) Might install it on a different drive and try it.

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by mikaeliby:

It doesn´t have Honest Hearts? Not particularly "Ultimate" then...

Not taking the steam saves isn´t really an issue. Good time to start anew :) Might install it on a different drive and try it.

It should have it eventually, looks like just a glitch.

[supernova backshots]

My brother asked me about it. I shoulda told him "Did you get Metro: Last Light for free earlier today?"

[Sophisticated Gumi-chan]

Originally posted by Salamand3r-:

Originally posted by Sophisticated Gumi-chan:

It shows in the DLC list, but when you try to install it, it fails. Probably just Epic sucking ass as a platform. It doesn't seem to be a straight recompile, there's functions that have been reworked internally that are vastly different than the Steam version's. Also, basic changes from the compiler have massive improvements. Faster floating point instructions are now being used, as before they were using the FPU, they are now relying on SSE for their floating point math. At the time, SSE processor were not common in PCs around 2011. However, if you check the Steam hardware stats, near 100% of PCs surveyed have SSE instructions in them now. This results in a massive performance boost in floating point calculations done on the CPU, as you can reference burned-in microcode to the CPU to calculate floats, where as before, they were reliant on the FPU stack and C-based floating point functions.

I don't have enough experience with FONV's engine to determine if this build is or isn't better internally, but I am experienced with x86 assembly. From what I can see in IDA and Cheat Engine, massive improvements have been made.

Problem is, they still don't fix basic engine issues like the 64Hz tickrate stutter, 32bit exe, DX9 shared pool, memory handle allocation (which artificially limits plugin count) etc.

And the mods that fix those problems rely on the script extender.

And the patch that allows the script extender to work patches it back down to the Steam version, negating any improvements in the actual game exe from the recompile.

Those fix mods already boost performance in NV by like 3-500% in some instances - this new Epic version doesn't come anywhere close.

You'd be better going over it with lStewieAl or Wall_SoGB, they're both nose deep in NV's code and could give way better information.

Edit: Also, SSE was universal in CPUs of that era. SSE/SIMD was introduced for Intel CPUs back on the Pentium III (literally last century), and the first Althon had SIMD under their 3DNow! umbrella in first gen Athlon chips. They may have access to *newer* SSE now, but they should have had at least basic level stuff previously.

https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/81281

Stewie mentioned the enhancements here:

"The Steam version of the game was compiled without optimisations(spelled wrong) enabled so performance is worse, though a lot can be regained by following the performance guide in VNV."

He can't even spell optimizations right, and yet this is the guy who you consider a reputable source on efficient programming? But even he saw the same thing I saw in the EXE, that there are massive improvements in the EXE.

And yes, SIMD has been in CPUs since 1999, but remember just because it had it doesn't mean tools supported it. Fallout 3 begun development sometime in 2005, so my bet they were using the Visual Studio 2003 toolset. Probably carried over to Fallout New Vegas to prevent breaking anything. Visual Studio didn't offer full native SIMD support until 2019. So just doing basic inline floating point math wouldn't be optimized out like it was in the Epic build, it would just default to the FPU stack operations and internal C-based floating point functions which are very slow.