WHY THE LEGION IS THE RIGHT CHOICE

[SpiffyGonzales]

So it occurs to me that, no matter how much I research, there is NOTHING defending the legion. The only half good one I've heard is "oh muh antithisis" and most common one is "But it's a wasteland"
The first makes no sense because the antitheisis would already exisist in the wasteland and with the legion already existing destroying it would serve its purpose. The second makes no sense when house managed to tame vegas while being mostly civilized and the same can be said for the NCR.

SO, the reason you came. How on earth can you defend these evil marauding slaving murderers?
well... morally... you can't. The fact is their goal is conquest and they dont have anything to offer any settlments that aren't tribals (in which case you could argue they are good, but not here).

BUT... you can still argue they are the best faction to join. Why? Because they'll WIN.
Yea yea I've heard all the arguments before "They can't beat the ncr cuz is so big ans stuff out east", "If caesar dies it all falls apart" , "it's whoever the courier sides with"i get it.

But the reality is that the NCR CANNOT hold vegas. Even if the courier sides with them. I'll go down the list.
"They can't beat NCR cuz too big and stuff out east"
The NCR size is its own weakness, as stated even in the legate speech check. Eventually ceasar would push too far in and be stuck by a more centered NCR. However as it pertains to the battle of vegas, the NCR is still fighting mutants, LOTS of raiders, and (and this CANNOT be understated) THEMSELVES. If they cannot even manage a HUGE trade hub like prim and save it from raiders, then they can't hold vegas. As for the east, the east was WON by the time of the game. They'll have some discontent sure, but the east was once again tribals, and the ammount of slaves they get from it MASSIVELY bolster legion forces. The fact is that the army attacking the mohave is ONE SINGLE legion army. Legion propper is well protected and has very little uprising risk (as opposed to NCR). They can consript massive numbers in a very short time. And if they simply chose to skip the dam altogether and go past the river into the mohave... well you can see the soldiers reactions themselves.
"If caesar dies it all falls apart"
Well... yea. Unless the Legate takes over. And if he dies too... unless vulpes takes over. The fact is that it's strongly hinted that caesar has a very well built command structure. And ALL of them want the mohave. Honestly I understand it's a dictatorship, but the whole "massive infighting" mindset people have towards the legion makes little sense if you actually play them. Most people are entirely willing to step aside and let the legate take over. They all know their place, and they all know who's next.
"It's whoever the courier sides with"
Not true, the end game is for the dam. If Legion gets dam huge parts of NCR will be without power. If NCR gets it nothing changes. If Courier kills EVERYONE at the fort, there's likely still people in Legion proper who are next in line. Caesers entire ideology was to build a nation to last. I don't think he'd risk his ENTIRE successive line in one battle.

If there's anymore I'll see if you're right or if i can argue it.

Anyways, lets say caesar wins no matter what, How does this suddenly make them the good guys?
Well it DOESN'T. It does however mean that by making everyone go against the legion you are condemning them to death, even if eventually. We all know what Caesar does to people who go against him. And assuming Caesar dies and the legate rules then it's far worse (unless of course the legate dies too in which case its probs same as caesar).
So by choosing to make people join the Legion, you are allowing their towns and peoples to not be enslaved and slaughtered.

The moral choice essentially becomes Liberty and death, or life with restricted freedom. And the reality is that by having the towns join caesar, you are allowing them to survive. Not only that, but they will survive without raiders, mutants, drugs, or anything else they had to face before. They get to live their lives like normal as long as they don't anger caesar, even the legte understands this given the end game dialague.

Not only that, but by giving caesar a place to actually build an empire instead of just beating and killing, you'd be bettering the lives of people in legion propper.

so, there is my case for the legion. Thoughts?

[SlickPolishBoi]

To add to your argument about Caesar's death, and the supposed resulting instability that would follow. Caesar clearly states in his dialogue that his entire goal for taking over the Mojave, ins't just to expand, it's to transform his nomadic empire, into a true state with real staying power. Because of Caesar's ideology, it is also likely then that this is why he has held out on declaring an official heir. He believes it is inevitable for him to transform his group of nomads into Nova Roma, (New Rome) and as such will likely declare his heir once he takes and consolidates his rule over New Vegas, his new capital; just as our world's Caesar did.

Also to add to the argument about the Legion's victory being inevitable. Most people tend to think about the situation in New Vegas with the Courier always being present. This is an unfair analysis of the situation. Instead what one should do, is remove the courier from the equation entirely. When doing this, it is impossible to make the case that the NCR or Mr. House can win against the Legion. None of the massive issues that the NCR (or if Mr. House revolted; The Strip) faces would get fixed by the Courier if he/she were present. The Legion really doesn't need the Courier due to the instability in the Mojave, and the threatening footholds that the Legion already has in the base game. The Courier siding with the Legion is just the cherry on top for them.

[Panic Fire]

People seem to forget the NCR has tanks and vertibirds. If the NCR did fight the legion as in actually fight them then the legion would lose period. The NCR simply has too strong of a military force to lose. The legions lack of use of actual technology would be its undoing. This would be doubly the case if Caesar died, as the Legate would follow the banning of technology to the letter of the law as thats exactly how his character is.

The only reason the Legion is dominate force in New Vegas is because its literally the outskirts of the NCR's empire. The people the NCR has stationed there are just rejects or undesirables. The only military force there that is compitent is the Rangers.


The legion is a bad choice simply because it lacks sustainability. If it did conquer the NCR it would rip itself apart from the lack of enemies to tackle. As its an orgainization that can not exist unless its actively fighting a war. The only option for it to succeed in any meaningful way is for Caesar to live, and for it to conquer the NCR so that the Legion could adopt the technology and manufacturing of the NCR as Caesar planned to do.


Also don't forget Slick PolishBoi, if the courier wasn't in the game then Caesar would die 100%. The NCR would face the Legion, and either Benny or Mr. House would have the full power of the securetrons as the courier wouldn't have tracked down Benny.

[SlickPolishBoi]

To the point that the NCR has a superior technological advantage, While yes the NCR has Vertibirds and other motorized vehicles, to say that the Legion is technologically backwards is an unfair analysis. Their are plenty of cases where Legion soldiers can be found with quite advanced tech on them. Not only that, but many of the advanced tech that the NCR has that the Legion does not, is already extremely limited. For example, around 90% of all NCR forces that use Power Armor in New Vegas, have power armor that is incomplete, suggesting that things of higher maintenance, such as a Tank, are going to be even worse for wear. Also, due to Caesar's Legion seeing no qualms with using a howitzer, it is safe to say that they would have no qualms with using Vehicles, and power armor of their own that would be found in the numerous military bases of Arizona and New Mexico. The reason they probably don't is due to the location of the Legion in the mountains, where using vehicles is pointless, and the lack of knowledge on how to operate said equipment; as most of Caesar's Legion, used to be Tribal Savages who didn't even understand how to use guns.

Also Panic Fire, it is probable the Caesar wouldn't die from his disease, as he'd likely send some high ranking Frumentarii to do the same job that the Courier did. I also think you forget that Mr. House has no way of activating his Securitron army without the Courier, and Benny just gets captured by the Legion when he tries to do it, so that's a mute point

[DINNER ALARM ACTIVE!!!]

i dont like legion cuz they are mean :(

[SpiffyGonzales]

Originally posted by Panic Fire:

People seem to forget the NCR has tanks and vertibirds. If the NCR did fight the legion as in actually fight them then the legion would lose period. The NCR simply has too strong of a military force to lose. The legions lack of use of actual technology would be its undoing. This would be doubly the case if Caesar died, as the Legate would follow the banning of technology to the letter of the law as thats exactly how his character is.

The only reason the Legion is dominate force in New Vegas is because its literally the outskirts of the NCR's empire. The people the NCR has stationed there are just rejects or undesirables. The only military force there that is compitent is the Rangers.


The legion is a bad choice simply because it lacks sustainability. If it did conquer the NCR it would rip itself apart from the lack of enemies to tackle. As its an orgainization that can not exist unless its actively fighting a war. The only option for it to succeed in any meaningful way is for Caesar to live, and for it to conquer the NCR so that the Legion could adopt the technology and manufacturing of the NCR as Caesar planned to do.


Also don't forget Slick PolishBoi, if the courier wasn't in the game then Caesar would die 100%. The NCR would face the Legion, and either Benny or Mr. House would have the full power of the securetrons as the courier wouldn't have tracked down Benny.

The NCR tanks and vertibirds are VEEERY rare. That's NCR central stuff you're talking about. And even then, it's mainly to protect important outposts and high ranking individuals. And even then they are clunky and need a lot of maintenence.
This also doesn't acknowledge the millitary power the Legion has back at home. Remember, they were fighting a MASSIVE war in the east. And it took MONTHS just to get one man and his personal guard (Legate) to the mohave. Chances are the guys you see in NV aren't even the Legions main force. What he has in the game is just to take one strategic area, the dam.

As for the legions use of technology, they were about to go through a massive wepons deal with the van graffs. Energy wepons dealers. Not only that, but I'm assuming that id they are willing to ally with the boomers and are willing to use straight up howizers... they probably have a few rocket launchers just in case of virtibird or tank forces.(Side Note: The legion does NOT ban technology. They simply restrict it to those most loyal to Caesar.)

It should also be noted that the majority of the NCRs Territory IS the outskirts of the NCR. Remember, the big reason people hate them and why they fail so often at putting down rebels is because even though they have a large army who is spread out fighting mutants and brotherhood in the north, LOOOOOTS of raiders out east, and god only knows what down south. And that's excluding all the people who refuse to pay taxes or simply choose not to be part of the NCR.

Also if it takes new vegas (which it will) it will have a capital city. Remember most of legion territory is rural with no real citities "worthy" of Caesar. Thats why he wants vegas in the first place. Also you should look at a map of america in fallout. Trust me there's PLENTY of enemies for them to take on. As for Caesar dying... I'm pretty sure he has a literal social/milltary class of fumentari who would literally kill to do what he had the courier do.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Originally posted by skype:

i dont like legion cuz they are mean :(

Which is exactly why you should side with them, so that they dont massacre all the good people in the wastland when they takeover and let them be.

[Something completely different]

You didn't do enough research OP.

A trader near the legion fort explains it quite clearly that land that the legion holds is much safer to travel about then NCR lands are because the Legion is much better at keeping order.

[The Commendatore]

Then Caesar dies and all goes to ♥♥♥♥.

[RedneckDevil]

the legion basicallys ♥♥♥♥♥ the ncr and takes over the most of the mojave and the strip if u go yes man and dont do anything at all. so yes u are right, the Legion does win.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Originally posted by Something completely different:

You didn't do enough research OP.

A trader near the legion fort explains it quite clearly that land that the legion holds is much safer to travel about then NCR lands are because the Legion is much better at keeping order.

True but that is legion PROPPER. We are talking about fallout NV itself, the mohave. And anyone who resists Caesar in the Mohave will most certainly become a slave (if they're lucky). Best to have them be treated similar to most organized towns in legion propper where the state mostly ignores them rather than face the legion in a full on fight.

[jabberwok]

Originally posted by Slick PolishBoi:

To add to your argument about Caesar's death, and the supposed resulting instability that would follow. Caesar clearly states in his dialogue that his entire goal for taking over the Mojave, ins't just to expand, it's to transform his nomadic empire, into a true state with real staying power. Because of Caesar's ideology, it is also likely then that this is why he has held out on declaring an official heir. He believes it is inevitable for him to transform his group of nomads into Nova Roma, (New Rome) and as such will likely declare his heir once he takes and consolidates his rule over New Vegas, his new capital; just as our world's Caesar did.

Also to add to the argument about the Legion's victory being inevitable. Most people tend to think about the situation in New Vegas with the Courier always being present. This is an unfair analysis of the situation. Instead what one should do, is remove the courier from the equation entirely. When doing this, it is impossible to make the case that the NCR or Mr. House can win against the Legion. None of the massive issues that the NCR (or if Mr. House revolted; The Strip) faces would get fixed by the Courier if he/she were present. The Legion really doesn't need the Courier due to the instability in the Mojave, and the threatening footholds that the Legion already has in the base game. The Courier siding with the Legion is just the cherry on top for them.

Dictators who hold off on declaring heirs have a habit of dying suddenly without doing so. Even when they do, those heirs often don't respect the claim in the long term. One or both of these problems plagued some of the most successful conquerors in history. Alexander comes immediately to mind, and the parallels to New Vegas's Caesar are myriad. He was a highly successful military commander with a cult of personality, he tried to unite numerous cultures under a single banner, and may have been poisoned by his own people. His empire had lasting effects, but as a political body, it died with him.

As to the second part, I would just point out that the many problems to be fixed for the NCR and House mostly exist because this is an RPG. Legion territory is woefully underdeveloped in comparison. If we were able to explore their territory and society to the same degree, you can bet that it would also be full of problems to fix, because that's what quests are.

Edit: And while I understand the desire to to come up with a canon analysis that reaches a conclusion while discounting the player, I don't think it really makes sense to do that. The whole point of the game is that there are three evenly matched sides in a battle, and one guy walks into the middle of it and tips the scales.

[Laati]

There is one problem with the Legion though. Medicine.

The NCR uses stimpaks, surgery, actual medicine.

While the Legion? They use Bitter Drinks and Healing Powder. And while that does help in game.

In lore wise? A bit of powder won't save you from a gunshot wound.

But a stimpak? That heals much faster than healing powder. Especially the Super variant.

It can repair crippled limbs as well.

And don't forget chems as well. Chems also have medical applications. A good example being Med-X which is practically Morphine.

But the Legion? They outright despise modern medicine. In fact, unless if you pass a speech check. You're not allowed to bring in any form of chem or stimpak.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Originally posted by Laati:

There is one problem with the Legion though. Medicine.

The NCR uses stimpaks, surgery, actual medicine.

While the Legion? They use Bitter Drinks and Healing Powder. And while that does help in game.

In lore wise? A bit of powder won't save you from a gunshot wound.

But a stimpak? That heals much faster than healing powder. Especially the Super variant.

It can repair crippled limbs as well.

And don't forget chems as well. Chems also have medical applications. A good example being Med-X which is practically Morphine.

But the Legion? They outright despise modern medicine. In fact, unless if you pass a speech check. You're not allowed to bring in any form of chem or stimpak.

Healing powder in lore is actually pretty good. And you could assume that there's different versions of it for illnesses and cuts and stuff. Also that's only for the run of the line rank and file soldier, not for the higher ups. And for Legion they have a MASSIVE population compared to pretty much every fallout faction. They straight up admit that they are fine sending soldiers to their death cuz they can just get more. Remember women are literally used to breed.

Not only that, but healing powder can be made anywhere. Few people really have the knowledge to MAKE stimpacks. And most who do don't exactly want to trade.

I will say you're easily right though. The Legion EASILY should invest in stimpacks. However when your population is so big that it doesn't really matter... well... it doesn't really matter XD

EDIT: also I have to say Legion goes for the win when it comes to chems. Yes they CAN be used well, but if the entire NCR army got shot up on phsycho... I don't really think caesar would mind. drugs, ESPECIALLY in the fallout world, do far more bad than good.

[SlickPolishBoi]

Originally posted by jabberwok:

Originally posted by Slick PolishBoi:

To add to your argument about Caesar's death, and the supposed resulting instability that would follow. Caesar clearly states in his dialogue that his entire goal for taking over the Mojave, ins't just to expand, it's to transform his nomadic empire, into a true state with real staying power. Because of Caesar's ideology, it is also likely then that this is why he has held out on declaring an official heir. He believes it is inevitable for him to transform his group of nomads into Nova Roma, (New Rome) and as such will likely declare his heir once he takes and consolidates his rule over New Vegas, his new capital; just as our world's Caesar did.

Also to add to the argument about the Legion's victory being inevitable. Most people tend to think about the situation in New Vegas with the Courier always being present. This is an unfair analysis of the situation. Instead what one should do, is remove the courier from the equation entirely. When doing this, it is impossible to make the case that the NCR or Mr. House can win against the Legion. None of the massive issues that the NCR (or if Mr. House revolted; The Strip) faces would get fixed by the Courier if he/she were present. The Legion really doesn't need the Courier due to the instability in the Mojave, and the threatening footholds that the Legion already has in the base game. The Courier siding with the Legion is just the cherry on top for them.

Dictators who hold off on declaring heirs have a habit of dying suddenly without doing so. Even when they do, those heirs often don't respect the claim in the long term. One or both of these problems plagued some of the most successful conquerors in history. Alexander comes immediately to mind, and the parallels to New Vegas's Caesar are myriad. He was a highly successful military commander with a cult of personality, he tried to unite numerous cultures under a single banner, and may have been poisoned by his own people. His empire had lasting effects, but as a political body, it died with him.

As to the second part, I would just point out that the many problems to be fixed for the NCR and House mostly exist because this is an RPG. Legion territory is woefully underdeveloped in comparison. If we were able to explore their territory and society to the same degree, you can bet that it would also be full of problems to fix, because that's what quests are.

Edit: And while I understand the desire to to come up with a canon analysis that reaches a conclusion while discounting the player, I don't think it really makes sense to do that. The whole point of the game is that there are three evenly matched sides in a battle, and one guy walks into the middle of it and tips the scales.

Except Caesar - besides the illness that is mentioned, and one that we have already discussed could be easily be fixed by the Frummentarii - shows no sign of dying any time soon, and in the ending game cutscene for the Legion, Caesar has everything in place for him to declare an heir, right then and there. And also as previously discussed, his command structure is so clearly defined and understood, that even if he dies immediately after that cutscene, then Lanius would just become Emperor and likely declare an heir.

In response to you're second part, besides the obvious and understandable lower tech quality issue that the Legion has, none of the clear issues that the NCR faces, are never talked about by the Legion as something they also face. If you talk to Raul and the trader at Fortification Hill, they'll tell you that the Legion is a safe and prosperous Nomadic Empire, while any of the enemies and raiders that would be a threat, have disintegrated in the face of the Legion's military might.

While on the surface all the factions you encounter seam to be evenly matched in theory, in practice, the Legion is clearly the greater power in the Mojave.

[jabberwok]

Originally posted by Slick PolishBoi:

Originally posted by jabberwok:

Dictators who hold off on declaring heirs have a habit of dying suddenly without doing so. Even when they do, those heirs often don't respect the claim in the long term. One or both of these problems plagued some of the most successful conquerors in history. Alexander comes immediately to mind, and the parallels to New Vegas's Caesar are myriad. He was a highly successful military commander with a cult of personality, he tried to unite numerous cultures under a single banner, and may have been poisoned by his own people. His empire had lasting effects, but as a political body, it died with him.

As to the second part, I would just point out that the many problems to be fixed for the NCR and House mostly exist because this is an RPG. Legion territory is woefully underdeveloped in comparison. If we were able to explore their territory and society to the same degree, you can bet that it would also be full of problems to fix, because that's what quests are.

Edit: And while I understand the desire to to come up with a canon analysis that reaches a conclusion while discounting the player, I don't think it really makes sense to do that. The whole point of the game is that there are three evenly matched sides in a battle, and one guy walks into the middle of it and tips the scales.

Except Caesar - besides the illness that is mentioned, and one that we have already discussed could be easily be fixed by the Frummentarii - shows no sign of dying any time soon, and in the ending game cutscene for the Legion, Caesar has everything in place for him to declare an heir, right then and there. And also as previously discussed, his command structure is so clearly defined and understood, that even if he dies immediately after that cutscene, then Lanius would just become Emperor and likely declare an heir.

Violent leaders don't need to show signs of dying to suddenly die. Live by the sword, die by the sword. He is named Caesar, after all. We can't predict the future, but if you want to believe that Caesar lives a long life, then that's your head canon. It's not illegitimate, but I don't think it represents a 'true' version of a fractal universe.

Also, declaring an heir does not mean the legacy is secure, when the government is based on cult of personality. A less crafty, less charismatic successor could easily lose control of the tribes very quickly.

The second part is the thing that I don't buy, though. It's not about how well structured his command is. It's about the source of his people's loyalty. Caesar has inspired fierce loyalty in a number of powerful tribals, but that loyalty is clearly to Caesar himself, and the loyalty of the Legion to their individual commanders is based on fear. Lanius is a great example, but Lanius has no interest in governing a stable empire the way Caesar does. His interest is in slaughter and conquest. He makes a powerful front line commander for as long as the momentum lasts, but I don't think he would be able to hold the Legion as a whole together, or even have much interest in doing so. He is the sort of commander who would keep marching forward as the territories behind him disintegrated back into warring tribes. Remember, this is the same guy who murdered his own tribe when they stopped fighting back. His loyalty is to strength, not ideologies, and I think he exemplifies the sort of commander that Caesar has gathered. The sort that will turn on any they view as weak. It's a powerful, but very temporary form of loyalty.