how is my gun math?

[Kneller]

Not that this matters much with the math, but I'm doing a run where I can only use what I scavenge (no merchants).

TLDR
1) Is Ratslayer -really- a bigger deal than La Longue Carabine
2) That Gun vs. Lucky, they really are pretty equal, huh?

Part 1

I'm still pretty early in the game (level 7, just hit novac and about to do come fly with me). Shortly, I'll be able to upgrade my Cowboy Repeater (current sniping weapon) to either Ratslayer or La Longue Carabine. I always hear a lot about Ratslayer, and not so much about La Longue Carabine. Comparing the two, it almost seems like La Longue Carabine is a better choice by far.

Side note, I'm rounding down decimals to estimate conservatively. Also, I know damage scales to skill, but this would affect both weapons proportionately equally.

Now, I know Ratslayer has the x5 crit multiplier, but this is not relevant when it comes to sneak attack criticals. Looking at the weapons, Ratslayer has a base damage of 23, which gets bumped up to 26 with match ammo. So, that's a 104 hit with a sneak attack and 13 with better criticals

On the other hand, La Longue Carabine has a base damage of 35, or 43 with JFP ammo. On a sneak attack, that's 172, or 215 with better criticals. Throw Cowboy on top of that (20% w/ JSawyer's mod), you have a hit of 258.

The only other thing working in Ratslayer's favor is the silencer, but I've found that silenced weapons don't seem to do much of anything.

Part 2

The same goes for a VATs weapon. Long story short, I was thinking of going with the All American as a cheap trash mob sniper and VATs weapon, but I'm thinking it's not really worth the weight and the real face off should be Lucky and That Gun. Their stats are pretty close, both are affected by the Cowboy Perk, but I think ammo may be the deciding factor.

Like with Ratslayer, I always hear about Lucky, never really That Gun. Lucky is easier to repair. It does have better spread with or without hand loads (with it's .24 vs..32, fwiw). However, That Gun has an AP ammo option (great for robots and scorpions).

I'm definitely more on the fence with this one, but considering the rifle options, I think That Gun might edge out slightly ahead as it lets me diversify ammo if I'm using La Longue Carabine.

[talgaby]

Ratslayer has more common ammo, a night vision scope, much better precision (it is one of the most precise weapons in the game), and it can work outside sneak crits as well with its crit multiplier; it is one of the weapons where you can reach 100% naturally.

Yes, it is losing actually to a lot of sniper-like weapons or just rifles in terms of base and crit damage, but it is the whole package why it is a fan-favourite.

That Gun is somewhat better, even if it is nowhere near its FO1/2 levels. Lucky is more favoured since you can find it in the second town without paying, That Gun costs a pretty penny and you need to hoof to Novac to get it.

[MannsOverMeta]

Just to let you know, damage increasing ammo and perks only affects the base damage from what I know. So the carbine sneak attack damage would actually end up being 210 with JFP ammo, the Cowboy perk, and the Better Criticals perk, or 206 with your Cowboy’s 20% instead of 25%. Meanwhile the Ratslayer’s would be 120 with match ammo and the Better Criticals perk.
Both of these assume all damage increase are rounded down, with each multiplier being applied individually instead of all st once before being rounded down. If that’s not how it work I’d like to know.

If we take into account non sneak attacks, with all the same perks and ammo, the carbine will do 53 (51) damage on a normal hit and 105 (103) damage on a critical hit. The Ratslayer will do 26 on a normal hit and 70 on a critical hit. With a critical chance of 20% or greater, the Ratslayer will be hitting all the time thanks to it’s 5x critical multiplier (flat chance increase should also be considered). The carbine has a 1.5x crit chance multipler. So the Ratslayer will be doing a constant 70 while the carbine will have a 30% chance or higher to outdamage it. Otherwise it will do lower damage.

There’s also factors to consider like the carbine have a faster firing speed and magazine size but having to reload bullets individually, while the Ratslayer can do it all at once. The Ratslayer is also silenced, which does make it easier to preform sneak kills in multiple targets. That and the Ratslayer has a better spread and scope, making it better at long ranges.

There’s also stuff like headshot damage bonuses to consider and... well I don’t want to get into that. I’m not even 100% sure if my own calculations s are correct.

On that note, does somebody know how all this works? Do perks like Cowboy affect crit damage? Do bullet types or gun condition affect crit damage? Does the guns skill affect it? Or is it critical damage a factor that is untouched by all the base damage multipliers?

As for That Gun and Lucky, That Gun is better for what you’re trying to use it for. Faster reload that doesn’t go one at a time, faster firing speed, minimal decrease in magazine size. Lucky has less spread but if you’re using it at closer ranges it won’t affect you much. That Gun has a guns skill requirement of 50 and a strength requirement of 6 compared to Lucky’s 0 and 3, respectively. Also weight 5 compared to Lucky’s 2.5.

[Kneller]

That Gun is pretty demanding. I've been ignoring my combat skills from the beginning, focusing on non-combat skills for quests. I'll get to combat skills eventually, though. Also, my strength is only 5. I'll eventually get an implant, but that won't be until I can max some casinos and sell some snow globes.

Originally posted by MannsOverMeta:

The Ratslayer is also silenced, which does make it easier to preform sneak kills in multiple targets.

On that note, does somebody know how all this works? Do perks like Cowboy affect crit damage? Do bullet types or gun condition affect crit damage? Does the guns skill affect it? Or is it critical damage a factor that is untouched by all the base damage multipliers?

As for That Gun and Lucky, That Gun is better for what you’re trying to use it for. Faster reload that doesn’t go one at a time, faster firing speed, minimal decrease in magazine size. Lucky has less spread but if you’re using it at closer ranges it won’t affect you much. That Gun has a guns skill requirement of 50 and a strength requirement of 6 compared to Lucky’s 0 and 3, respectively. Also weight 5 compared to Lucky’s 2.5.

I think a lot of assumptions are made with numbers. The wiki has a lot, but not everything. However, if the assumptions are applied across the board, then the conclusions are still valid for comparison, if not absolutes.

Also, is the silencer that great? I haven't used it in a while, but I remember my first shot/kill setting off an entire mob into caution, making additional SAC's impossible, and the follow up crits hit kinda soft.

And, if Ratslayer is all that great, then maybe Lucky is better for a VATs backup, to diversify ammo?

[talgaby]

Ammo and perks affect the base damage. Critical damage is a separate stat for each weapon and only the Better criticals perk affects it (without mods).

However, sneak attack criticals and headshots all double the entire damage pack, they are added after all modifiers. This is why the Terrible Shotgun in FO3 was stupidly crazy, at max skill it one-shot a super mutant behemoth (strongest base game enemy) with a single sneak headshot.

[Vassago Rain]

Rat slayer is one of the best weapons in the game. With a high weaponskill and the proper build, it's viable through the whole game. You can easily murder all the deathclaws near Raul's shack and Sloan without even being in danger if you use it, and since it's a silenced weapon, only one of them will even draw aggro at any given time.

It's so good, it makes combat even more trivial than it already is.

[Kneller]

Originally posted by Vassago Rain:

Rat slayer is one of the best weapons in the game. With a high weaponskill and the proper build, it's viable through the whole game. You can easily murder all the deathclaws near Raul's shack and Sloan without even being in danger if you use it, and since it's a silenced weapon, only one of them will even draw aggro at any given time.

It's so good, it makes combat even more trivial than it already is.

That seems to be a little optimistic. What can Ratslayer do that the COS can't? Sure, the COS is a little higher maintenance, but even factoring the Ratslayer potentially getting a crit every hit, but the COS still outperforms. Ratslayer is definitely a top weapon early/mid game, but for the end game? That's pretty debatable.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if Ratslayer was king. Aside from damage, I like everything else about it. But, if I'm being honest, there are better options for the same use by the late game.

[MannsOverMeta]

Originally posted by talgaby:

Hat’s for the clarification. I’m assuming that the interaction between shotguns and critical hits works the same in NV? If so, that would be pretty crazy for crit/sneak builds.

[ghpstage]

Originally posted by MannsOverMeta:

Hat’s for the clarification. I’m assuming that the interaction between shotguns and critical hits works the same in NV? If so, that would be pretty crazy for crit/sneak builds.

The interactions are the same, but the crit damage was slashed across the board. None of the things that caused problems with shotguns were fixed, new problems were created.
Shotguns in NV aren't known for being great crit weapons, where they excel is in perk effects.

Bethesda surprisingly came up with a simple yet robust fix for the multi-pellet crit problem in FO4 that succeeds when faced with VATS, random crits, legendaries that add damage or pellets (but not ones that add damage via effects), weapon parts and even mods. Credit where credit is due.

[Vassago Rain]

Originally posted by Kneller:

Originally posted by Vassago Rain:

Rat slayer is one of the best weapons in the game. With a high weaponskill and the proper build, it's viable through the whole game. You can easily murder all the deathclaws near Raul's shack and Sloan without even being in danger if you use it, and since it's a silenced weapon, only one of them will even draw aggro at any given time.

It's so good, it makes combat even more trivial than it already is.

That seems to be a little optimistic. What can Ratslayer do that the COS can't? Sure, the COS is a little higher maintenance, but even factoring the Ratslayer potentially getting a crit every hit, but the COS still outperforms. Ratslayer is definitely a top weapon early/mid game, but for the end game? That's pretty debatable.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if Ratslayer was king. Aside from damage, I like everything else about it. But, if I'm being honest, there are better options for the same use by the late game.

Ratslayer does everything Christine's rifle does, but with far more common ammo, better handling, all but guaranteed criticals even outside of sneak attacks, has nightsight, better spread pattern, the spread can be further reduced by using match ammo, and due to how sneak attack criticals work, the effective 'first shot' damage you output with either is more than sufficient to kill pretty much anything. A sneak attack headshot from ratslayer deals a minimum of 112 damage, without any perks, special ammo, or other bonuses, which for sure is quite a lot lower than the 248 damage you'd be dealing with Christine's rifle in the same situation, but when you add perks and special ammo, you're looking at 260~ for the ratslayer, which is more than sufficient to kill anything very quickly, from a perfectly safe distance, while maintaining stealth.

In the same situation, Christine's rifle, the anti-meme rifle, the first two bursts from BOZAR, Paciencia, and so on...all overkill spectacularly against things that aren't deathclaws. Against a deathclaw, it still takes two headshots from Christine's rifle to bring them down, even with all the bonuses (483 potential damage per shot, 500 HP on the most basic deathclaw), but the ratslayer also requires two shots to kill them (292 potential damage per shot), so why even bother with the DLC exclusive overkill weapon that can't actually outperform the 'trash' early game rifle when it comes to big game hunting?

I actively avoid weapons like ratslayer, because it's just not all that fun to play with them. I much prefer the actual bad guns, like BOZAR, all the dumb explosives, miniguns, and other impractical things. They sometimes make you work for your phat kills and damage.

[Kneller]

Originally posted by Vassago Rain:

Originally posted by Kneller:

...but when you add perks and special ammo, you're looking at 260~ for the ratslayer, which is more than sufficient to kill anything very quickly, from a perfectly safe distance, while maintaining stealth.

How do you get to 260 for the Ratslayer? Aside from Better CriticalsBase damage is 23, 26 with match ammo. There are a handful of kill perks (i.e. Lord Death, the one's that give +10% against a particular enemy type, and then Lonesome Road). So, let's generously estimate another +25% from that, you're at 32 damage. On a SAC with better criticals, that makes 32+32+23+23+23, or 133 damage.

[talgaby]

Shotguns in NV were "fixed", but now the pellets do damage in a rather strange way. If you have the two shotgun perks, they are good (especially since the knockback in itself is better than any firearm).

Christine's DSK-501 is a great weapon, I love it, but there are barely a handful of enemies you need it to one-hit-kill someone with a sneak headshot because the Ratslayer did not do the job.
I love Christine's rifle to bits, but Ratslayer as a general all-around weapon is superior. You can essentially play the entire game with the Ratslayer as it can handle any situation, but when I play with Christine's rifle, I always keep a pistol for close combat.

[Kneller]

Originally posted by talgaby:

You can essentially play the entire game with the Ratslayer as it can handle any situation, but when I play with Christine's rifle, I always keep a pistol for close combat.

I just grabbed it recently, and even with the super crit bonus, it seems to go splat on anything with armor. Based on the numbers, it seems like La Longue carabine should be able to keep up with it, and well surpass it on SACs. The only real difference being the silencer, if it even matters (it doesn't seem so to me, silencer or not, effects are the same, the mob goes to caution and starts wandering around the body).

[talgaby]

Because there is a bug on the thing: it was supposed to have a flag that never gibs enemies, but it now always blows their body parts apart. Funny enough, this is what alerts others; if you kill someone without blowing their head, if the weapon is silenced, the others will not get alerted even if they were talking to the recently deceased.
I think YUP or some other common mod addresses this and changes its flag, so that makes Ratslayer a lot better.

[Kneller]

The only mod I'm using is JSawyer. I don't want to fuss with mods so much, unless there is one that just fixes Ratslayer. So, basically, if I had other mods to address the stealth issue, the Ratslayer would actually be a lot better, but since I don't, I might as well use a loud weapon with better damage?

Does this apply to all silenced weapons (i.e. the COS)?

Side note, I do have the geck and created a quick mod that changes ratslayer's dismember on hit to no dismember. I presume this fixes the problem?

[talgaby]

No, Ratslayer is the only silenced weapon that has the bug.
And, naturally, there is an early standalone fix for that, before it was included in a bugfix pack: https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/41827/