Mount & Blade: Warband

Mount & Blade: Warband

The Last Days of the Third Age
Nehara Jul 27, 2018 @ 3:08am
Glaring Balance Issues
Hi,

Enjoyed almost everything else about this mod, but it feels like the flawed autoresolve balance hampers the game to the point of near unplayability. After looking around I found absolutely no mention of this problem anywhere, so it's either not as prevalent as it seems to me or there is something I don't really understand about the mod.

The crux of the issue are the orks - their autoresolve values are drastically different from how they actually perform in combat, and since they make up so much of the evil forces, it completely messes with the flow of the war. An AI-led army of purely orks can wipe an AI elven army with just a 20-30% advantage in numbers, with even more absurd autoresolve results in sieges (500 Lorien elves failing to siege Troll Cave with 300 orks - tested by a friend). Since ork-heavy warbands are coded to be more numerous than those of the good races, these autoresolve values generally snowball into mordor / moria casually stomping gondor / elves without the player intervening and is the main reason for evil winning the war by default.

The other side of the coin is that in actual, non-autoresolved battles orks are beyond garbage and fielding them is honestly not beneficial. As we all know, fodder tactics are not viable in M&B since unit slots are valuable in every wave and having your first wave wiped is horrendous, so even with large battle sizes (300+), a reasonable first elven / human wave is capable of simply standing their ground and wiping an indefinite number of ork waves without any challlenge whatsoever. They're simply to understatted to acomplish anything, regardless of how many there are.

Overall, this leads to ludicrous gameplay. On the side of good, you basically have to follow friendly lords / sieges around and try to save them from their autoresolve-induced doom, playing out their battles as ork-based armies suicidally throw themselves into you and you mop them up without much trouble. On the evil side, you have to not only avoid recruiting orks, but also avoid helping any friendly orks with their fights, since they fare so much better in autoresolve than an actual battle and will almost assuredly get wiped if you intervene.

Overall, this is just a bit too janky and once you really pay attention to it, the whole war is kinda difficult to take seriously. I'd like to tune the autoresolve values but after looking into it, I'm really unsure on how the mod dev implemented the party limit increases on the ork units and how this affects the campaign AI, so I'm looking for any useful input on how to solve this.
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boiling pie Jul 27, 2018 @ 4:13am 
But the good side should lose per default without player intervention. How else maintain the feeling of threat and the challenge?
Last edited by boiling pie; Jul 27, 2018 @ 4:16am
InVain  [developer] Jul 27, 2018 @ 6:33am 
I'm aware of the autocalc issues. Actually, around a year ago we even adjusted the autocalc formula to better reflect a troop's worth than Native's autocalc does. And I'm still considering even further buffing elves and dwarves in autocalc, while we're also working on making orcs more valuable in actual battles.
All in all, boiling pie is right, though. Evil is supposed to win in the long run.
Kham  [developer] Jul 27, 2018 @ 8:38am 
"The other side of the coin is that in actual, non-autoresolved battles orks are beyond garbage and fielding them is honestly not beneficial. "

I do not agree with this statement.

I, and many others, have played Orc-heavy factions (Isengard / Moria), and have successfully completed the campaign. Doesn't mean it was easy though. We just had to play differently.

Fodder tactics do work, especially when Formations are used (i.e turned ON), and if used in a slightly advanced fashion (e.g put low level orcs in a different division and have them in front of your elite units).

The use of Warg riders is also very important to the success of Orc-heavy factions. Having 1 warg rider is essentially having 2 units. Using them to draw fire from archers or cause chaos will give you ample time to move your shock troopers forward.

Lastly, I know it can be counter-intuitive to have a INT based Orc / Uruk player, but having at least 3 skill points in Training will lead to snagas being promoted to second tier by end of the day.

What you have to understand is that every faction / theater has their own internal difficulty. You simply cannot play the same way for each faction, you have to learn your own troops and adapt to your enemies. Perhaps we do not give enough time and information on how to do this properly. We do strive to make things more readable, however there are things that the player has to learn themselves.

As to your points regarding Auto-calc, I agree with them, and it is really difficult to adjust and something that we have had issues with since the dawn of this mod, especially due TLD's asymmetric balance.
Nehara Jul 27, 2018 @ 9:07am 
Originally posted by InVain:
I'm aware of the autocalc issues. Actually, around a year ago we even adjusted the autocalc formula to better reflect a troop's worth than Native's autocalc does. And I'm still considering even further buffing elves and dwarves in autocalc, while we're also working on making orcs more valuable in actual battles.
All in all, boiling pie is right, though. Evil is supposed to win in the long run.

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad this is being worked on, especially since I'm aware how problematic it is to tune autoresolve around intentional number disparities between armies.

Obviously, evil winning isn't the issue here, it's the fact that it's accomplished through a series of autoresolved fights where 120 goblins can take on 100 elves / rohans and somehow come out ahead. I think there are more elegant solutions to ensuring that evil wins without player intervention, such as spawning additional parties for evil based on timed triggers. Buffing the autoresolve values of the good factions to bring them in-line with their actual unit quality would probably overpower them in regards to non-ork evil factions, so I'd rather see orks specifically get a severe nerf in regards to autoresolving and receive additional party size limits / NPC parties to compensate.


Originally posted by Kham:

I do not agree with this statement.

I, and many others, have played Orc-heavy factions (Isengard / Moria), and have successfully completed the campaign. Doesn't mean it was easy though. We just had to play differently.

...

What you have to understand is that every faction / theater has their own internal difficulty. You simply cannot play the same way for each faction, you have to learn your own troops and adapt to your enemies. Perhaps we do not give enough time and information on how to do this properly. We do strive to make things more readable, however there are things that the player has to learn themselves.

I get what you mean, LoTR orks in actual battles must be difficult to balance without breaking immersion, so I hope you can manage. Overall, my issue isn't so much completing the campaign with orks, infact I quite enjoyed playing as a fodder army, it's more the disparity between their impact on live battles and their impact on autoresolve. However, I also feel like you're overstating the viability of fodder orks - any evil player has steady access to cheap and yet much stronger Khand units for example, which have great stats, dont die easily, take up much less slots per wave and perform better against high-tier units - so using an ork-heavy army is more about immersion and artificial difficulty, in a way.

I think it would be really useful for ork armies to have a more modern deployment interface to assign unit slots for the first wave of each fight, which would make it possible to deploy fodder units in a more controlled fashion. Currently, the orks' primary downfall is their inability to deal proper damage to good mid-to-high tier units, making their numerical advantage not very relevant - this could be remedied by increasing their skills / weapon / pstrike values and nerfing their defensive stats. Another solution could be increasing wave size for deploying orks, although I'm not sure if this could be implemented. Maybe an alternative would be giving orks stat boosts based on the number of reserve orks in the army?
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