Mount & Blade: Warband

Mount & Blade: Warband

The Last Days of the Third Age
Tuidjy Nov 25, 2017 @ 12:45pm
Suggestion for improving Moria and Gundabad
Right now, Moria and Gundabad troops have a really hard time in tactical combat, because they have truly bad armor penetration, but often face heavily armored opponents in the Lothorien elves, Rivendell elves and humans, and Erebor dwarves. As it is now, a player needs to bring heavy hitters from other factions, and will be advised to stay out of Moria and Gundabad's lords battles, to let the autocalc help them achieve what they could not in tactical combat.

I think this needs to be addressed.

Here are the ways in which I would NOT like to see it addressed.
1) Give Moria and Gundabad elite orc troops that are a match for the Free people
2) Introduce renegade humans, foreign Uruks, etc. fighting for them
3) Give them equipment that rivals Mordor and Isengard gear, let alone Elven one
4) Increase their effectiveness in archery exchanges
5) Increase their army sizes, or decrease their enemies army sizes

Here are ways in which I think Moria and Gundabad's efficiency can be improved:
1) Capitalize on their traditional alliance with wargs
2) Provide them with gear designed to defeat armor, possibly based on dwarven loot
3) Give them specialized troops that can work as long as they outnumber the enemy
4) Give them troops that can withstand at least some ranged fire

So, here is the way I would do it, while hopefully keeping the two factions lore friendly, clearly orcish, distinct from each other, and still underdogs.

-= MORIA =-

Moria will capitalize on its possession of captured dwarven equipment, and possibly existing dwarven facilities. They will receive the ability to successfully engage armored enemies in melee. They will be nowhere near a match for elves and dwarves in one on one, but in large numbers, they will land blows, and those blows will do damage.

1) Archers will remain unchanged. They are not Moria's strength.

2) Top tier shields will be improved. They will receive metal bosses, and strong metal rims. Defaced dwarven shields here and there would be nice, i.e. distinct dwarven shapes with orcish markings.

3) Blunt and piercing weapons will be made available to their melee troops. Flanged maces ground down from dwarven axes or made by attaching metal bits to wooden hafts, piercing picks for infantry, (longish) morningstar analogues for warg riders.

4) The top tier infantry will become a bit more able to resist arrow fire, i.e. guaranteed shields that can take more than one arrow... possibly three in a row. They will also have weapons that are slow and short, thus ineffective in one on one, but which will go through armor, as long as numbers allow them to land.

5) A new warg rider branch will be added, in addition to the existing one that is only useful for harassment and distraction. The new branch will have guaranteed new, better shields, the slower but more powerful armored wargs, armor that orcs would consider heavy, and morningstar type weapons that are long enough to be effective in combat. No thrown weapons.

Note that with these changes, Moria will still not be able to frontally rush massed elven archers, but at least, once they somehow make contact, they will be able to deal damage.


-= GUNDABAD =-

Gundabad will capitalize on improved thrown weapons. They will receive new thrown weapons that can defeat shield and armor, but will have to get closer to use them. Thus they will be more effective in broken terrain, which fits the lore, and their home map. They will have effective warg skirmishers.

1) Archers will remain unchanged. They are not Gundabad's strength.

2) Gundabad's thrown weapons will be improved. Throwing spikes, wedges and javelins will be introduced, with the ability to split shields, and with higher damage than existing ones. They should be slower, heavier, and with higher power throw requirements.

3) Gundabad will get a new branch of infantry, with heavier shields, although not as good or using as much metal as Moria's. This branch will be specialized in throwing, and have power throw to match. They will be have a chance of multiple stacks of axes, spikes, javelins, etc. At least one of the stacks will be guaranteed, and have an alternate fire mode allowing use in melee.

4) Gundabad's top tier warg riders will get improved throwing skills, as well as higher power throw. They will have a guaranteed spear just long enough to be effective on horseback, and short and fast enough to be used in melee. They will also have guaranteed javelins, better than the existing orc darts.

Note that due to lower speed, shorter range, and of course weak shields, standing off and trading shots will not work for Gundabad. The player will still have to maneuver to get in range, possibly by using terrain. But volleys should be devastating. Yes, this will make Gundabad favor players skilled in mircomanagement.

Phew, if you made it so far, congratulations!
Last edited by Tuidjy; Nov 25, 2017 @ 1:02pm
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
Kham  [developer] Nov 25, 2017 @ 2:51pm 
InVain may chime in here, as he is taking the lead on troop changes, but we are trying to address this as we speak. Your previous feedback about them made us take a look at it :)

Thanks for these detailed suggestions. Some of them are already in the works.
ajaxjs Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:07am 
All you need as Gundabad is the North Clan Riders. They are the alpha predators of the entire Northern hemisphere of battle. An army of Gundabad wargs will annihilate any Elven or Dwarf army.

The only thing that really gives them pause is Arnorian cavalry. Wargs seem to fare horribly against armored horsemen. Both owing to the angles for the attack (warg riders are hitting armored horses, horse riders are hitting warg riders), and being largely immune to rampaging wargs while mounted.

Conversely, they will just brutalize an elven bow line. I've seen two hundred Mirkwood elves slaughtered with only eleven Gundabad wargs dead. And all I did in the battle was have them charge.
Last edited by ajaxjs; Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:09am
Tuidjy Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:32am 
Are you playing at full allied damage? I have a video in which 54 top tier Gundabad warg riders lose to a 9 tier IV-V Lothorien elves in a direct charge.

If you are playing with 50%, let alone 25% allied damage, even the orcs' mid-twenties armor will help against the elves, and the armored wargs will be untouchable in melee. But at full difficulty, the numbers just do not add up. The orcs swing and swing, and the elves endure. Note that the elves have to be heavy armored or mounted for this to happen. If the elves are on foot, lightly armored, and armed with short light weapons, which Mirkwood archers are, it's a different story.

And I have another video, in which I dress with the equipment of a Noldor mounted archer, and take out 60+ Gundabad top tier warg riders solo. I get hit a few times for single digit damage, one headshot for about 20 damage, and dozens of zero damage hits. And I am not using a bow at all - it is all melee for me (the warg riders mostly score with their darts, but the damage is pathetic)

I am not questioning that you have done it, even at full difficulty. I could also pull it off if I drew the elves fire, if the archers were low level, and if they had short weapons. But with the existing cutting weapons the Gundabad orcs use, they simply cannot go through 40+ elven armor and 50+ dwarven armor.

I have seen a single 60 man Lothorien patrol take out the two Moria lords in tactical combat. I have my battle size at 400 for The Last Days, so it was 60 elves, 40 of my troops holding and 300+ orcs in the first Moria deployment. I withdrew when the orcs were down to single digits, so that I could get the relationship boost from saving their аss. The elves still had all but 20 of their men, and those fell mostly to trolls.

Also, do not forget that players who do not abuse berserk/retreat (as you do) and solo archery (as I do) do not get to lead 200 men or 500 orcs as I and, I assume, you do. Wargs take a full slot, and most people do not exploit the system by delaying level up so that they get extra ranks and 250% over their party limit.
Last edited by Tuidjy; Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:37am
ElderDays Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:40am 
It would be perfectly consistent with the lore to give Gundabad some tougher infantry in the form of hobgoblins(uruks)
Tuidjy Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:58am 
I just looked at the actual numbers in game. A top tier Gundabad warg rider gets no weapons over 20c. Leaving aside their pathetic length (50 to 70cm) their potential damage is lower than elven high tier armor, let alone dwarven one. Power Strike 4 and weapon proficiency 140 will not even take the damage to 30, and you can guess what happens, given that The Last Days has armor_soak_factor_against_cut 1.0 (For comparison, Native and Viking Conquest have .8)

Sure, the wargs themselves can keep the elves off their feet, and if you have reduced allied damage, they are pretty hard to kill for some archer types. But most of the Lothorien elves get real swords, as opposed to Mirkwood knives, and dwarves have solid weapons all around. And of course, the top tier elven archers have Power Strike 5, 6 or 7 (x1.5 to damage) plus weapon proficiency 400+ (x1.45+ damage) That doubles the damage of their 29c swords, and more (x2.3). So the orcs get it coming and going. Once the soak factor is defeated, the reduction factor for The Last Days is 0.0.
Last edited by Tuidjy; Nov 30, 2017 @ 2:22am
boiling pie Nov 30, 2017 @ 2:17am 
I've only played good faction but seen from this side, I have the impression that the main function of wargs is not to do damage, but to occupy especially the enemy-archers so that the orc inf. can charge in. The warg rider is irrelevant, it's the warg which counts.

I like this concept (combined weapon tactics, I'm not a fan of super-unit spam) and think it should be kept.

And I think wargs play their part very well: a few wargs can completely neutralize a whole archer line for quite a long time, mostly because they switch to their melee weapon and then just stand there until the warg is dead.

It's when the orc infantry comes into play when the plan falls apart. They are simply too weak. It's just wrong when even my rather frail character on normal damage can wade through hordes of orcs slashing left and right without taking much damage. It feels cheap.
Last edited by boiling pie; Nov 30, 2017 @ 2:21am
booee Nov 30, 2017 @ 6:37pm 
Gundabad is actually much better off then Moria thanks solely to their warg riders. Moria despite being based in a former dwarf holding are frankly weak and badly underequipped despite having mithril. I figured that they of all the orc factions would actually have the best heavy infantry. Instead their orcs are literally worse then ALL the orc factions even Mordor. Isengard orcs are well armored. Morder orcs have archers who don't completely suck. Gundabad orcs have the best warg riders in the entire mod.

Moria forces are literally the weakest of all orc factions which is saying a lot.

Overall orcs NEED better weapons so they aren't worthless sad sacks of ♥♥♥♥ who can't even poke the enemy to death properly(I'm looking at you tiny weapons made of laughs and arrows). No joke Orc Darts are literally the best weapons among orc forces. Those things are downright deadly and cruel perfectly orcish in nature. I must aplaud them even when playing as the forces of good(♥♥♥♥ those things are surprisingly deadly).

Gundabad orcs basically suffer from the most severe case of ♥♥♥♥ orcish equipment. They would be little better then tribal orcs as a proper faction if it weren't solely for their warg riders.

Moria suffers from the tragic case of Isengard being better at everything they should be the best at. Isengard should be THEE Uruk Kai faction. Instead in addition to the best uruk kai faction they ALSO provide the best orc infantry.

Which results in Mordor orc Archers(trackers actually) and Isengard Orcs Infantry being your best bread and butter orc combo if you don't spam Warg Riders.

If I were to fix Moria and Gundabad orks I would do this. Properly introduce Orc Heavy Infantry in the form of Moria. Who could actually survive under a hail of arrows behind their shields/armor and close in on the enemy. This would make Moria Orcs actually a threat. Which should be the point. Their gear would be best made orcish equipment and looted dwarven gear.

This should make them legitimately dangerous thanks to their mines and former dwarven holdings. While they won't have the warg riders to trash elven archers instead they get heavy infanty who can close in on them.

Gundabad gear should stay ♥♥♥♥, but they would still be able to create stone clubs and good throwing weapons. They have the best warg riders meaning they are a orc faction which should specialize in harassment and skirmishing. Give their infantry throwing weapons and let them spam them. Suddenly not only do you have an orcish horde and wargs to deal with. That orcish horde is throwing an entire storm of throwing weapons at you like those surprisingly deadly orc darts.

Suddenly their light equipment and good throwing weapons make them decent and most importantly dangerous skirmishers. They close in on you while your busy dealing with the wargs and to add insult to injury throw deadly orcish weapons at you before usual orcish swarming.

Doing just those two quick fixes and that suddenly the two most terrible orc factions suddenly become a threat if well managed by a good general.

And that is what it should be about when playing orcs.

Instead i get stuck with Mordor trackers and Isengarde infantry when I wanna play orcs but aren't willing to rely upon warg spam. Yes it works but Moria and Gundabad aren't even a consideration when they should be.
Blue Knight™ Jan 12, 2018 @ 7:22am 
Originally posted by booee:
Gundabad is actually much better off then Moria thanks solely to their warg riders. Moria despite being based in a former dwarf holding are frankly weak and badly underequipped despite having mithril. I figured that they of all the orc factions would actually have the best heavy infantry. Instead their orcs are literally worse then ALL the orc factions even Mordor. Isengard orcs are well armored. Morder orcs have archers who don't completely suck. Gundabad orcs have the best warg riders in the entire mod.

Moria forces are literally the weakest of all orc factions which is saying a lot.

Overall orcs NEED better weapons so they aren't worthless sad sacks of ♥♥♥♥ who can't even poke the enemy to death properly(I'm looking at you tiny weapons made of laughs and arrows). No joke Orc Darts are literally the best weapons among orc forces. Those things are downright deadly and cruel perfectly orcish in nature. I must aplaud them even when playing as the forces of good(♥♥♥♥ those things are surprisingly deadly).

Gundabad orcs basically suffer from the most severe case of ♥♥♥♥ orcish equipment. They would be little better then tribal orcs as a proper faction if it weren't solely for their warg riders.

Moria suffers from the tragic case of Isengard being better at everything they should be the best at. Isengard should be THEE Uruk Kai faction. Instead in addition to the best uruk kai faction they ALSO provide the best orc infantry.

Which results in Mordor orc Archers(trackers actually) and Isengard Orcs Infantry being your best bread and butter orc combo if you don't spam Warg Riders.

If I were to fix Moria and Gundabad orks I would do this. Properly introduce Orc Heavy Infantry in the form of Moria. Who could actually survive under a hail of arrows behind their shields/armor and close in on the enemy. This would make Moria Orcs actually a threat. Which should be the point. Their gear would be best made orcish equipment and looted dwarven gear.

This should make them legitimately dangerous thanks to their mines and former dwarven holdings. While they won't have the warg riders to trash elven archers instead they get heavy infanty who can close in on them.

Gundabad gear should stay ♥♥♥♥, but they would still be able to create stone clubs and good throwing weapons. They have the best warg riders meaning they are a orc faction which should specialize in harassment and skirmishing. Give their infantry throwing weapons and let them spam them. Suddenly not only do you have an orcish horde and wargs to deal with. That orcish horde is throwing an entire storm of throwing weapons at you like those surprisingly deadly orc darts.

Suddenly their light equipment and good throwing weapons make them decent and most importantly dangerous skirmishers. They close in on you while your busy dealing with the wargs and to add insult to injury throw deadly orcish weapons at you before usual orcish swarming.

Doing just those two quick fixes and that suddenly the two most terrible orc factions suddenly become a threat if well managed by a good general.

And that is what it should be about when playing orcs.

Instead i get stuck with Mordor trackers and Isengarde infantry when I wanna play orcs but aren't willing to rely upon warg spam. Yes it works but Moria and Gundabad aren't even a consideration when they should be.
Ive been doing my best to find any sources that state the Orcs of Moria would have heavy armour, or any armour to speak off, the Moria orcs were a loose band of orcs just living in moria, breeding and fighting each other, from all that i can find there doesnt seem to be a proper leader, Saruman has massive armouries and such because he is a Istari and has proper thought and isnt just an orc that wants to eat human flesh and kill things, Whip Snog, and Snoggtor arnt really "leaders" they are just the strongest orcs, and i can guess they would pick up some dwarven armour and use it, but only parts of it, because it probably wouldnt fit them all that well
Tuidjy Jan 23, 2018 @ 9:58am 
Originally posted by Makoodzaka:
Not sure what you guys are complaining about - both gundabad and moria have very good orcish forces.
Do you realize that you are replying to a two month old thread, after the developers have done a great job at addressing the previously existent NW orcs deficiencies? Didn't you notice the discrepancy between the gear referenced in the earlier posts, and what you are observing? Do you think everyone else but you is a blind moron?
Last edited by Tuidjy; Jan 23, 2018 @ 9:59am
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