Total War: WARHAMMER II

Total War: WARHAMMER II

Table Top Caps - Silent and Furious Edition
DrunkFlamingo  [developer] Jul 28, 2018 @ 11:12am
Balance Feedback
NOTE: IF YOU ARE USING CTT, YOU ARE USING DIFFERENT UNIT WEIGHTS THAN VANILLA, WHICH I DO NOT CONTROL. Talk to Chatapp.


If you think a unit costs too many points, too few points, or have any other balance related feedback, please make your case here!
Last edited by DrunkFlamingo; Aug 5, 2018 @ 5:59am
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Showing 1-15 of 138 comments
Lampros Jul 31, 2018 @ 4:14pm 
Okay, here are some balance feedbacks after playing about 250 turns on the "Very Hard" difficulty as Lothern. My modlist focused on Cataph's Boyz will be Boyz; and I incorporate a lot of mods in his recommended modlist.

1) Inconsistency in translation of tabletop rules to the PC game?:

This is not a balance issue per se but more a "fidelity" issue: Generally-speaking, it appears to me that you went overboard in making "Special" and "Rare" units too restrictive. More specifically, I believe the "Core" requirement on the tabletop in the 8th edition was 25 percent, not 50 percent, as you have it. In short, the spirit of the tabletop rule was to include "some" Core units; but you seem to have created a situation where the Core units form the "majority" of your stack.

Now, as someone who's spent a good part of his life interpreting laws, I am not a "strict constructionist"; and I agree that some "adjustment" or "translation" is needed in the transition from one medium to another. But only if it makes the game-play better; and I am not sure that is the case here - which brings up the next few set of issues:

2) Player v. AI imbalance: Ratcheting down the difficulty:

Contrary to your advertisement, in practice the game becomes far too easy with this mod: I think you forgot the fundamental consideration that being able to inundate each stack with elite units benefited the AI far more than the player. Consider that the fundamental player v. AI tactical combat imbalance on a unit basis was that the AI does not know how to deal with well-built characters; and it certainly does not know how to design one itself. And the chief way that the AI could mitigate this problem was to throw stacks after stacks of elite units at you. Now, it does not even have that weak counter play left to itself. The result is that the game should now be called "Total War: Herohammer redux." I was winning battles with such absurd ease at VH; and I was gaining land as fast as I did when I played at Normal. This was frankly absurd.

I should stress, however, that one concern I had regarding a potential player v. AI imbalance did not materialize. I thought AI armies could not deal at all with Chaos invasion stacks, but they did fine. In particular, Empire was not rolled back to Reikland and its near vicinity, as I feared.

3) Faction v. Faction imbalance: Dwarf runaway train runneth even faster?:

Here my conclusions are rather tentative, because there are too many variables in a given game to have settled views after one game. Still, it is logical to expect that those factions with strong Core units will do well; and those without them will not. And the game unfolded in precisely this fashion - in fact, even more so than I expected. The biggest beneficiary was the Dwarfs, as I expected. Instead of gaining steam late-mid game or so, they were strong pretty much from the get-go. The Lizards were also strong throughout as I expected, but they were far stronger than I expected. More specifically, Last Defenders actually ate all the TK factions in Southlands! I was shocked, as I have never seen TK not dominate Southlands before I tried this mod.

4) Summary and personal recommendations:

So how did I like the mod overall? I loved it for the most part, except the mid-game bug I encountered that saw Karl Franz ambush me with 16 Special/Rare units - including 6 Demigryph Knights. I lost my main stack with Widowmaker and kind of rage-quit and un-subscribed.

But since the above "game-breaking" bug is apparently fixed, I am willing to re-subscribe. Still, I do think that the issues I raised in terms of player v. AI imbalance is so dramatic that I think some tinkering needs to be done. What is the solution? Go back to the original; this is a system that was not broken and could have been transcribed directly onto the PC. So I would strongly recommend a system where "Core" units have some presence - 25 percent minimum per tabletop rules - but do not constitute an overwhelming majority. Since it would be difficult to re-work each individual point per unit, change it globally. Instead of 10 points of Special and 5 points of Rare, something like 12 points of Special and 6 points of Rare? Frankly, even this is too little, but as a conservative, I like incremental changes, not radical upheavals.

Thanks for reading!

P.S. I forgot to add that I had nerfed max Ward save from 90 to 60, because I already foresaw that AI armies couldn't deal with strong characters without the availability of elite spamming counters.
Last edited by Lampros; Jul 31, 2018 @ 4:20pm
Lampros Aug 3, 2018 @ 9:40am 
Demigryph Knights are too expensive relative to peer monstrous cavalry - i.e., Necropolis Knights and Dragon Ogres (not technically "monstrous cavalry" in WFB classification, but they function as one in practice). Either all should be 3 Special points to fit Demigryph Knights pricing or 2 Special points to fit the other two units pricing. I do not mind either way - though the latter option seems preferable, given how potent monstrous cavalry are in this game.
Dwarf rangers beeing rare and miners beeing special makes them both obsolete, especially the rangers.
Paeyvn Aug 27, 2018 @ 8:04pm 
Just finished my third campaign playthrough legendary/vh settings and here are my thoughts so far. First campaign was Alith Anar Vortex, second was Empire ME, third was Von Carstein ME. Poked around the Dark Elf roster as well on a completed campaign, but did not play with it.

Overall, I love the mod and I love the idea and I had a lot of fun with it. I found myself using units I ordinarily would never touch with a 10 foot pole like White Lions and it was nice not doomstacking around everywhere. However, I found the balance to be somewhat skewed between various factions as well as Regiments of Renown (god I wish they'd never added these) messing with it a lot. I'll cover the races individually and then compare afterwards. I also realize that categories are determined by army books but I will still point out my thoughts where it didn't feel right. Perhaps a method can be found to assuage the issue while maintaining the categories.

High Elves: Overall they were pretty solid. Getting Lothern Sea Guard and Silver Helms as core units was incredibly useful. The fact that Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard, Dragon Princes, and White Lions were all special forced me to make some concessions and limit the number of these units and bulk out with more White Lions which until playing with this mod I'd never found particularly useful. However due to the AI being restricted in the same manner and using them more, I grew to appreciate them and they held their own well, sometimes even somehow outperforming the unit of Swordmasters next to them. The overall balance for the specials here feels good. Ignoring Regiments of Renown, I ran with 1 Phoenix Guard, 1 Dragon Prince, 1 Swordmaster, and 4 White Lions generally. The fact that bolt throwers and eagles were rare, as well as Sun/Moon Dragons being the same point cost didn't feel right though. I ended up using either 2 Sisters of Avelorn and 1 Star Dragon or 1 Star Dragon and 1 Moon Dragon in most armies. I feel Star Dragons could be pushed up to 4 rare points, Moons up to 3, and keep Suns at 2. Sisters of Avelorn felt appropriately priced as did Phoenix units.

Empire: Overall this faction also felt fairly solid. Handguns/Halberds/Empire Knights all being core gave a fairly workable foundation. Things felt decent overall in the special category with two exceptions. That flagellants cost 1 special point instead of being core just felt a waste to me. Even if they were a core unit I would find it hard to include them, and having them cost special points made them irrelevant just as they were before this mod. Moving beyond that Reiksguard feel appropriately priced, just as Demigryphs do. Greatswords on the other hand didn't feel right to me and felt a bit too restricted at 2 points. It wasn't game-breaking, but they didn't feel they pulled their weight. Mortars and Cannons being available as specials also felt appropriate. Rares felt fine overall, Helstorms were the only one that felt they should be special instead but they worked nontheless .

Vampire Counts: This is the first faction that felt very off to me. All of their core options are awful units, and their special and rare categories are horrendously restrictive for the most part. Grave Guard costing 1 special hurt, but is not unreasonable in and of itself but the problem compounded when reviewing the rest of the special roster. The lowly bats being a 1 point special was unpleasant, though not overly restrictive as they're replaced down the line anyway by appropriately priced 2 point Vargheists. The problems started appearing after looking at Black Knights, Crypt Horrors, and Hexwraiths however. Even the most basic Black Knight costs 2 special points despite their resoundingly mediocre stats. The fact that Hexwraiths cost the same as the most basic Black Knight just seems wrong and I feel Black Knights (both varieties considering cost and additional building requirements) should be lowered to 1 point specials at most. Crypt Horrors were also fairly awful for a 2 point special. I'd rather take 2 Grave Guard w/ Great Weapons than 1 Crypt Horror unit in essentially 100% of situations. The only real saving grace here is that you don't need an armory to recruit Crypt Horrors, but when you consider you can just get a unit of Vargheists that also don't require an armory for the same points cost you just have to ask yourself why you'd bother. The rare roster is also a bit of a crapshoot. Varghulfs feel good at 1 point, Cairn Wraiths feel weird being in this category at all (I know, tabletop again) though it did let me recruit them early on for an armor piercing infantry option to augment a limited grave guard/vargheist army so it sort of works out. I want to say I feel like Blood Knights are priced appropriately and they probably are, but I never used a single unit of them for my entire campaign due to other issues. Terrorgheists feel like they should be 2 points rather than 3. Mortis engines feel good at 3. Overall all of these issues wound up with me taking as many higher tier units as I could rather than some more expensive ones (read 5 Varghulfs rather than 1 Varghulf and 2 Blood Knights) because I'd essentially not be physically capable of running a full army otherwise - I was already including 4-5 heroes in every army to avoid having to take skeletons, zombies, or ghouls since every other faction I fought would mop the floor with them core vs core. I also found myself auto resolving a massively disproportionate amount compared to normal while playing Vamps due to the roster limitations just sapping the fun.

Comparisons between the factions I played? Using Empire as a baseline I felt that the High Elves felt overly strong and Vampires felt underpowered. Dragon Princes cost the same special points as Reiksguard despite being miles better. Silver Helms and Empire Knights are fairly comparable, though when you factor in martial prowess they win out - both however are core so a non-issue. Black Knights are essentially inferior to both Silver Helms and Empire Knights, yet are 2 point specials against their core status. High elves had to struggle and sacrifice things to limit down to enough units to fill out an army due to everything being solid, Empire felt about right, Vampires I drowned every army in Vampire heroes over recruiting anything from their core and the special/rare rosters felt too restrictive and like there were no real choices to be made and instead having to bulk out with as many cheaper rare/special units as possible to have an army that was worth anything. Dark Elves I didn't get to play with, but I didn't notice anything too out of whack compared to the others to say much there.

In the end I loved the mod for the most parts and look forward to further updates. I feel that doubling the point cost maximum for both the rare and special category and for the most part doubling the point costs of the units would help a lot - especially with vampires- as it would allow for more fractions of points compared to now. Grave Guard could stay at 1 point whereas Vargheists would double from 2 to 4. Every point would essentially be half a point from the current system, allowing for more precise tweaking for situations where the difference of a single point would feel too large in the current system.
Laughing Forest Sep 16, 2018 @ 12:49pm 
Feedback:

Overall, would love either:

(a) an overall tweak to make special are units cost more points, or
(b) a version of the mod that is far more conservative and makes special and rare units cost more points

Love the mod overall, truly. Just - I like my specials to feel real special and rares to be truly rare. Currently, being able to put 10 special units into an army (without other mods' caps kicking in for a faction) just forgoes the point of this mod.

Again - love your work. Would just love almost an 'ironman' version of the mod.

Thanks~!
Babarigo Oct 15, 2018 @ 9:47am 
Hi great mod, I think pistoliers should be considered a core unit. They are a lower tier unit compared to the TT since they don't have the AP damage.
Hermanos Oct 15, 2018 @ 1:51pm 
Hi, I really enjoy your mod! I have a suggestion: I think that for Von Carstein faction the bats should be a core unit, because Isabella has a lot of buffs for them, so if they are special units you will never use them and Isabella loses her potential skills.
I realized today that Skrolk counts plague monks like core units and I think its amazing, weel done!
Reichspepe Nov 14, 2018 @ 5:09am 
Hello there, I think that tomb guard with halberds with 2 instead of the 1 point cost of the normal variant, are a bit much. While being quite good, they are already very rare to even recruit in the first place, and also don't perform 'that' well compared to other units with 2 point cost, like Ushabti for example or Tomb Skorpions, which only cost 1 point. The same can be said about Nehekharan Horsemen being 2 points, imho.
Last edited by Reichspepe; Nov 15, 2018 @ 12:53pm
Battelkrusr Dec 6, 2018 @ 5:41pm 
So, some feedback for Vcoast here:

I do like how Depth Guard and artillery interact with one another with this mod. Since both mortars and the Guard are fairly restrictive, it's a, in my opinion, good decision of whether you want to have an elite frontline, or heavy fire support.

Fell Bats as special feel just awful though. Dogs fulfill the exact same role, but do it better against anything but skirmish cav, and even bats aren't all that great against skirmish cav. As it is, Fell Bats are never worth the special slot. Yes, I know, it's closer to tabletop, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's pretty bad, in my opinion at least.

Similarly, why do Syreens and Mournghouls both cost two rare slots? As it, as Vcoast you can never have more than two rare units in your army, because every single one of them takes up two slots. They contend for the exact same space as the big mosnters, and that just doesn't feel right. I'd prefer them both moved down to one. Again, tabletop vs gameplay >.<

Monsters feel appropiately priced, for the most part. Both Promethean versions costing two slots makes me wonder as to why ever bother with the non-gun version though, once the ones with guns become available.

Aaand that's already it gonna have to do some more testing with other factions, but that#s my opinion on Vcoast
Karnof Dec 16, 2018 @ 7:23am 
I just finished a Dark Elves campaign. Compared to the other campaigns I have done with this mod (Skavens, VC and Vampirates)
DE was a little bit annoying, Executionners, Black Guards and Cold Ones Knights all costing 2 specials is a bit much imo.

I'm not sure how HE are balanced but I have the feeling they are not as restricted as DE.

Lowering costs of Cold One Knights would be helpfull and allow us to have Elite Infantry, Heavy Cav and Artillery in the same army, something that is currently difficult
Originally posted by Reichspepe:
Hello there, I think that tomb guard with halberds with 2 instead of the 1 point cost of the normal variant, are a bit much. While being quite good, they are already very rare to even recruit in the first place, and also don't perform 'that' well compared to other units with 2 point cost, like Ushabti for example or Tomb Skorpions, which only cost 1 point. The same can be said about Nehekharan Horsemen being 2 points, imho.

This, tomb guard and horsemen costing 2 points is too much tbh, especially if things like marauder champions cost only one point.
mazdamundi Apr 21, 2019 @ 9:21pm 
I find it funny that the skaven get rattling gunners and doom flayers as troop choices also storm vermin are troop choices
Surge Apr 22, 2019 @ 11:17am 
Doomflayers as a core choice is insane, especially given that they almost totally obsolete rat ogres which are 2 special points.
Originally posted by Reese:
I find it funny that the skaven get rattling gunners and doom flayers as troop choices also storm vermin are troop choices
I may be wrong but I'm fairly sure all these things were Core units in 8th Ed, I'm seconding the opinion that rattling guns and doom flayers should be special in ttw.
Also I think Warpfire throwers eventually got moved to special during 8th ed.
PrussianWarfare  [developer] May 3, 2019 @ 7:55pm 
*kracks knuckles*
Alright I'm here to answer questions on balance as I updated the units and made changes for the Doomsayer Update.

The way I made changes were based on 1) Tabletop rules and 2) Warhammer unit archetypes. For example, Dwarf Miners in the 8th edition armybook are considered special units at 10 points per model, yet in Warhammer 1 they are a cheap chaff unit. This mod should serve and entice people and the AI to use more units in their armies instead of the same doomstack each time, and the player is not going to want to use their special pool to recruit chaff units when they can get Ironbreakers, Hammerers, or even a Cannon!
Thus, one of the changes I made was moving Dwarf Miners and Dwarf Miners (Blasting Charges) to core.

@Malaclypse the Third
Pre-End Times there was no 8th Edition Skaven Armybook, so I'm relying on the 7th Edition here. Which means that starting off, Weapons Teams are all core units. Doomflayers are a different unit archetype in Warhammer 2, acting as a chariot unit with great armor values, superb splash damage animations, and punch through heavy cavalry with their AP values, so they are at the moment worth 2 special tokens. This is similar in price to Ithilmar Chariots and Cold One Chariots.

@Reese
Continuing on this, Ratling Gunners and Warpfire Throwers are definitely strong, and there is some good thought to moving both units to cost 1 special token.

@Der Weihnachtsmann
I'll look at the Tomb Guard point cost, they could probably go down to cost 1 special token. I do however like Nehekhara Horsemen at 1 special token: they are a good upgrade from Skeleton Horsemen and serve as a different unit archetype than Necropolis Knights.

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