Hello thank you for your feedback, I just made some slight balance changes based on another discussion but I still have a response for you.

Assault
Do you not find them too powerful? I have nerfed them a little and the shield has been buffed/nerfed

Commando
What do you think would make a "wow" factor for the commando?
I have been considering Multi-Shots but this may make the gunner less useful.
The Shotguns double shot is really powerful but yes the costs are quite expensive.
I would suggest editing the costs of the lw2 secondary weapons as they dont seem balanced for WotC but instead LW2.

Demolitions
I have lowered the cooldown on Breaching Round and the ammo cost, I hope this doesnt make them too powerful.

Gunner
I do agree that the knife is really underused.
I chose the knife based on the longwar build of the class.
The knife is meant to be for close range defense and I guess it makes the player use the cannon exclusively so maybe it serves some purpose.

Mage
I'm not sure if training times can be adjusted per class.
I have seen some custom psi classes use or require the psi labs to train but then level up normally, so I may look into that.

Sentinal
The pistol perks are supposed to compliment a scouting type of role.
This makes them trade damage output but allowing them to get up close and scout ahead.
I have lowered the cooldown on a bunch of pistol abilities but perhaps a pistol damage increase would help them here?

Support
Generally I have found the free healing too powerful so it has been restricted by having shared limited charges.
Aside from this the choice of arcthrower or holotargeter is really player dependant although I think the arcthrower is slightly too powerful but its a little out of my control.

Technician
They have had their charges increased so i hope this makes them more useful.
I'm not really sure what perks would benefit them if they were to take from the SWAT class and become more close ranged, I tend to keep them at a distance myself.

Some Changes I am considering;
Gunner looses Knife and Gains Sawn Off Shotgun, the sawn off is better than the knife but still forces use of the cannon which keeps the intended role intact, a replacement for Combatives will also be needed (probably fortitude +10 defense).
To Make the Sawn Off better I could give the gunner specific starting perks to maybe increase the damage, increase the aim, increase the uses (or make unlimited), this way it would be turned into a very powerful self defense weapon that can execute enemies foolish enough to close distance with the gunner, as it stands even if they get close sometimes a cannon blast is better than 2 knife attacks.
Commando looses sawn off shotgun & Overwatch Tree, Gains combat knife and will have a tree focusing on CQB / Old SWAT perks making their mobility more useful and no primary shotgun makes CQB slightly more viable, charge perks can also be reworked to work for the knife and makes gunner overwatch specialist.
This would keep all the LW2 secondaries in use, make the knife worth upgrading, keep a choice between holotarger/arcthrower playstyle and make the sawn off shotgun more worthwhile.

Thank you for your response!

I believe the assault to be 'reliable' and not too strong - close range is a dangerous game and I like the high risk, high damage role they play.

The Gunner / Commando secondary swap is worth investigating. Whilst I do like having the shotgun on the Commando, you could have just as much utility with the knife. Unlimited sawn-off shotgun use on the Gunner would work for me, as it's 1-tile range voids its use in most circumstances. Perhaps drop the 'Charge' Perk to balance unlimited use?

* Just seen the March 10 change notes *

Ooh, the swap is in. And the Pyro makes a surprise return. Not sure how I feel about that class yet as I disliked how powerful it was in LW2.

-- CLASS FEEDBACK -- June 2018, L/I ABA.

i. The Assault
Perfect with the new shield cooldown. Reliable Tank class for risky moments.

ii. The Commando
Very solid with the fluid knife fighter perks.

iii. The Demolitions
A balanced nerf of the vanilla Grenadier. It should be really valuable, but it's not currently due to the Pyro and the Spark. (more on that later)

iv. The Gunner
A quite like this class with the S/O shotgun - but I still like a massive cheeselord running the gunner out of cover to give two barrels to the Chosen. Perhaps nerf S/O shotgun dmg bonuses further? I feel that the S/O should be a last, reliable resort weapon when out of ammo, not an alpha god-killer.

v. The Mage
Still love this class sprinkled in the early game myself, although I am sad the Psi Lab is now useless.

vi. The Pyrotechnic
The Gauntlet gives you triple the dmg functionality of the Exo-Suit, with no slot drawback and no reseach or development costs. It's available early game. It's quickly becomes tremendously unbalanced and trumps the Demolitions for selection every time. I have disabled this class myself.

vii. The Scout
I had LW1 expectations of joy for this class but it's left me feeling very flat. I have many, better shotgunner classes to take, and many better Rifle classes to take. It just does not feel necessary in X2, which is a shame as I wanted it to return.

viii. The Sentinel
I enjoy having a stealth sniper/pistol build which is not a Reaper. However, the Sentinels stealth is way too amazing, perhaps nerf it to Reaper detection levels?

ix. The Support
Still a great class, I always take one on lengthy missions to keep the squad alive. I feel you could role back to the dual arc/holo build and everyone would be cool with that.

x. The Technician
I always take combat protocol first, everyone takes combat protocol first. What if you switched Combat Protocol with Haywire Mechanic for Squaddie loadout? That would give the other Corporal perks a look-in and also a slight boost in attractiveness for missions not involving a remote hack.


-- BOLD RECOMMENDATIONS -- (Which I have no right to make)

Remove the Pyro and the Scout Class.
Rollback the Support to Arc/Holo dual build.

Reasoning: I think the mod was in a good place with only 8 classes, it creates more balance and less overlap. The Grenadier and Exo-suit will become much more valuable.

-

Create a new 'Adrenal Darts' buildable item. Make the Support's remote heal charge mechanic dependant on taking that item (thus losing a slot).

Reasoning: This will make the support perks and loadout choices a tactical one, bringing balance to a powerful class.

I'm really not sure what to do with the Demolitions versus the Pyro.
I'm really not feeling the Pyro at all but having the LW weapons includes it.

As much as I like the SawnOff Shotgun it is pretty broken by nature :\
Adding a damage nerf to it instead of a buff could work??

For the Mage I don't really want to mess with the built in Psi-Labs.
There have been mods that normazlie psi-ops but I'm not sure about it, they've had issues.
I could overwrite the base game psi-op but it'd probably still require the room training.
For compatibilities sake it's probably best left as is, at least with the Psi-Labs you unlock Psi-Amp Tier 2.
It also saves you a base slot.

The scout only really comes with 1 new perk (hit and run) otherwise primarily builds based around the X2 Ranger.
I don't think it really adds a whole bunch either to be honest.
It does reutilize some older perks and provides a stealth based infantry unit but I don't think its really enough either.
I'm not sure if it needs a rework.

The Sentinel does have the same stealth 'level' as the reaper but doesn't get the bonuses from shadow (such as enhanced mobility and chance to shoot and not break concealment)
I think I'm starting to agree with the argument that there the sentinel probably invalidates the scout.

The Support is indeed a pillar, I've tried to make them more versatile as low ranked supports can struggle to get kill xp if focusing on heals.
I've also tried to make the choices more than just picking all the healing perks.
The problem with an adrenal darts item is that it could be used by anyone.
What I'd like is a sort of stim gun which would become the secondary weapon.
I could make one but I can't do 3d models so it'd have to be a pistol xD
The problem with 2 secondary weapons is that if you choose 1 there is no need to choose the other and you commit to 1 usually.

I think ultimately I'd love to cut down the classes, there is a lot of overlap on Perks anyway.
I think I might even go as far as to say I could do without the Longwar Weapons at this point.
Without the LW weapons I'd be down to just 5 secondary weapons (pistol, sword, psi-amp, gremlin & g.launcher)
I think this would push me to condense a lot easier but would require another version of my classes (I hate having so many versions but don't wanna mess with older ones)
As for this version I'll probably leave it as it is, the classes can be toggled on/off at will.
At least if I leave it alone people can make edits without fear of overwrite.

I also think swapping combat protocol with haywire is probably for the best.

This might be a little crazy but what if these were the 5 classes; (Perhaps with 4 perk trees each)
Assault (Shotgun & Sword) - Would be based on the assault but take the demolitions shotgun perks too. Would be your close range specialist.
Commando (Rifle & Grenade Launcher) - Would rework the commando and demolition together. Would provide an infantry role as well as explosive deployment.
Mage (Rifle & Psi Amp) - Wouldn't change much although if I did 4 trees I'd need more perks.
Sentinel (Sniper & Gremlin) - Would combine the Sentinel and Technician. Would be the long range specialist, gremlin abilities break stealth typically but could provide more long range support/offense where needed.
Support (Cannon & Pistol) - Would merge the Gunner and Support for a medic that also serves the role of gunner and would have a wide range of support abilities. Could use the pistol to deploy healing darts and could also have pistol abilities.

Hmm I do like having the 8 distinct classes (rather then 5) as it solves the vanilla problem of super classes which can everything. Its why users are attracted to mods like this, we want more rock, paper, scissor choices for loadout.

I also really appreciate having the LW weapons included. Desperately knifing a sectoid to death etc.. Perhaps leave the Pyro to be toggled then and just remove the scout?

My own blue sky thinking here... What happens if you remove the rocket ability from the Pyro, and blend him with the Scout? A Flamethrower, lightning reflex class? Exo-suits for rockets/heavy weapons are suddenly back on the menu.

I think what I might do is "roll back" changes to the previous version for now and leave it as is for a bit while I think about what I wanna do.
I do see your point about super classes and yes the lw weapons are nice (except the gauntlet) so I'll have a bit of a rethink.

I can beta-test the roll-back if you like? About 10 hrs into a new campaign so no biggy if it breaks.

If I roll it back it rolls back for everyone.

This is my own personal feedback, but please add pistols for Gunners. A solid, common tactic for high level gunners is to build them like a sniper in the sense of scoping their weapons and giving them Perception PCS, so that they have insane levels of aim. Giving them pistols rounds out the kit better than the S/O because this class is all about sustained, long-range firepower. If nothing else a choice between the two would be very welcome.
Like, we already have the Commando, Assault, Demolitions, and even Medic that can all provide close-range firepower. Pistols retain the same close range accuracy but round out the Gunner's superior cannon for damage in a much better way than the sawed-off, imo.

Thanks for an excellent, fun mod. I've played a couple of games with it now, although not right to the end (I'm still trying to find a way of making commander challenging or legend bearable, as I can't find a sweet spot for my skill level).

I'm usually playing with A Better Advent and a handful of quality of life mods. I've also tweaked the upgrade costs of the LW2 secondary weapons, as the original LW values are horrendous, anticipating a LW length campaign, and I found they make you want to only play half the classes to keep costs down. Certainly you'll never do something like having both flavours of support if you pay original price for an upgraded Holotargeter and upgraded Arc Thrower.

I don't play with Pyros enabled, as you suggest.

As far as the classes go, I'm finding them all useful except I can't really find a use for Commandos. I'd always rather have an Assault for the same role. Their defining feature seems to be 'slash then take an action afterwards' but you really, really want a shotgun if you spend half your life standing next to enemies. I'm sure in a previous version they got Technician level hacking skills (but no gremlin) which would at least make them go to skulljackers.

I have a few issues with Sentinels too, I think I'd have much preferred your original vision of a scout role and a sniper role. I tend to just build them as snipers and use reapers to scout.

Assault shield seems a bit strong early game, when it stops almost two shots, and a bit meh late game when enemies are hitting like a truck. As shield strength looks to be an eStat value it might make sense if shield strength increased with level - something like base 3 and then an extra point every other level.

Demolitionist seems to make more sense with a shotgun than a rifle, but maybe I'm too used to LW Sappers.

My biggest issue is class stats. I noticed some of my soldiers seemed to be far more useful than others, even though I'm not using a 'not created equal' mod, so I had a look at the .ini and was...surprised.

The biggest offenders are Technician's, Mages and Sentinels. Hacking, Psi Offence and Aim are crucial to these guys performing their role, and the variance in score they gain (most notably on rank up to Squaddie) is enormous. The stat gains for Techs and Mages is 40 + 0-59 in their role stat (Hack/Psi Offence) while Sentinels get 10 + 0-19 in Aim. I believe Psi Offence caps at 100, so most Mages will cap (they get 0-9 per level up after squaddie) anyway so long as they don't roll really badly on their first level up.

I was also surprised that there's no real difference for stats for any other classes. As far as I can see everyone gets 1-5 aim per level and at Sergeant, Captain and Colonel they get +1 hp with a 50% chance of an additional +1 .

The wide variance does tend to average out at higher levels, and isn't as bad as the huge variances described in the paragraph above, but it still tends to make some soldiers suck and some shine if they repeatedly roll well or badly.

I'm not sure why all the hp gains are lumped into three ranks. Possibly RandStatAmount doesn't work as I understand it to, but my understanding is that it gives a bonus of between 0 and (Value-1) so all those RandStatAmount 1 gains per level will never give any bonus hp. I'm seeing this in game too where everyone has 4hp until Sergeant.

I appreciate your class stats are significantly better than base game soldiers if they roll well, but personally I'd prefer to see a bit more consistency. I personally don't like random values on level up at all, but I may not have understood your vision for the mod. I don't actually mind (point based) not created equal type mods, as there you have some control over what you do with the soldiers (if you pick their class) and you know from the beginning where they'll be strong and weak. A soldier gradually turning out to be lousy because they keep rolling low at level up just annoys me.

I appreciate the variety in perks this mod offers means you can probably capitalise on good stat rolls and mitigate bad ones, so if you get a demolitionist with amazing aim you spec him for rifle perks, and if you get a sentinel who rolls 1 every time for aim you make them a scout, but that still means having to respec perks because you won't know how their stats shape up until they get to higher levels.

In the base game Colonel accuracy varies from 75 for Grenadiers and 91 for Sharpshooters. In the mod you get between 72 and 100 accuracy at Colonel for all classes except Sentinel. They get between 81 and 124.

Health at Colonel is 10 for everyone except Sharpshooters who get 8, in the base game. In the mod it looks like Colonel health is 7-10 for all classes.

Did you consider moving at least some of the level up bonuses to static gains? Given how big the variance is, I'm guessing this is a mod vision thing, and our tastes just differ. I'm really not into 'some supersoldiers, some cannon fodder' but that's very much a matter of personal taste.

Whatever your feelings on overall big variance, some more differentiation between the classes might also distinguish more between them. Something like:

Accuracy:
Low - Support, Mage, Demolitionist, Templar
Medium - Assault, Gunner, Skirmisher, Technician
High - Sentinel, Commando, Reaper (This might really help differentiate the commando)

Health:
Low - Sentinel, Reaper, Commando, Mage
Medium - Skirmisher, Technician, Support, Gunner
High - Assault, Templar, Demolitionist

It occurs to me to maybe remove the -acc from the arcthrower if Supports get low aim, so arcthrower supports are still viable.

I think I'm going to try making these tweaks myself and trying a playthrough so I'll let you know how that goes.

Thanks again for the mod, it's awesome!

Thanks for the feedback. Currently I'm not playing as after 1300 hours i got a little tired so i wont be making any changes anytime soon.

I tend to agree with a lot of your points and yes we likely have different taste i think some of these opinions are valid and warrant some balancing to the mod later on. I will consider these when i come back to it (unless x3 comes out by then).

As for me i like to have a rag tag group and have varied units among them. It isn't about maxing stats when I play its more dealing with what someone is capable of. I dont mind not knowing who has what potential and don't respec any perks. It keeps enough variance where i don't use the same builds over and over.

I dont play legend either theres too much bs.

Some great points. I play on Legendary with the classes and I pretty much agree with Uncle's points, I would add though:

Commando gets a terrifying flank damage bonus. I use them at mid-range for flanking rifle shots, only closing in with the knife when things get desperate. The ability to knife a sectoid abductor twice is a god-send.

This is a different role to Assault, who is a tank first and a damage dealer second. This is because on Legendary you rarely ever want to close with the enemy due to the danger of activating another pod in the mist.

I would agree that Sentinal could drop all inflitration roles. My sentinals are either classic snapshot long range snipers, or up close loud gunslingers who I want firing, not concealed.

I used to use A Better Advent but dropped it due to the bullsh1t with Primes. I used a mixture of enemy mods now which is more satisfying.