Relic Removal

[The Lone Wanderer]

Will we ever get an option to say, sell a relic or trade one in for a curse removal or even taking a curse card or something?

As an example of why this would be nice, starting relic trade for rando boss relic, i received the velvet choker, which is game over the second you pick it up (On silencer anyway) regardless of your build, it is a game over relic. So getting it from neow, means you can't even just abandon really, because you have to at least get to the first boss for a reset on those neow options, max hp is eh and next three combats 1 hp enemies is a massive gamble. So, it's annoying, basically have to do a double run to reset.

So, that said, are we ever going to get, maybe a ? with the options to dump a relic, or maybe a trade in scheme at the merchant, sell your relic for 50% or 25% of it's value even?

just some suggestions or thoughts, because this game's RNG is purely gauged toward screwing you with that 1 pain card drawn as first card or when you've got a full rotation or whatever, people know this game, it goes out of it's way to screw you on draws and gambling stuff. (Well, maybe I just have bad luck, but if you have one thing in your deck that you're chancing not getting with other cards you will draw it about seven/eight times out of ten) and often times you're put in positions where you're screwed no matter what you pick or do. I've noticed a trend on any deck make up that you will never draw your perfect hand or combo and the further you get in the game, the worse your luck gets on draws.

(I do have a math table it's kinda rough and not refined yet because, well frankly it's not important enough to invest the time in, but gambling works out profitable/beneficial about 31% of them time from my experience)

This is mostly gathered from my own runs, other people likely have different experiences and I am generally always the unluckiest person in the room, the number of times a 1 in a million freak accident occurs to or next to me is beyond uncanny so, maybe it's just me.

[Songbird]

Velvet Choker is the best boss relic in the game for act 1. Then you just... don't take cards that will require you to play more than 6 cards per turn. Don't take 0-costs, don't take stuff like Tactician (not that you'd take Tactician unless you're energy-starved anyway). Like the only downside to it if you get it that early is that it makes Adrenaline/Offering/All for One slightly worse when you're offered them and means a second Echo Form is unlikely to ever be good?

If you don't like getting screwed over by Pain and Regret, maybe don't add them to your deck? There are no situations in the game where you will end up with these cards randomly outside of randomly rolling into non-beta Calling Bell (and you literally started your run with the most random possible choice and complained of randomness).

The reason you don't draw a perfect hand later in the run is either because you have more cards, or because you're playing terribly and relying on drawing combos you're not likely to draw every time and thus you're always observing that runs end this way. If you're actually killing elites, though, you also have more relics that can help with your starting hand and more energy so you can include more draw in your deck.

[Zu]

Never say never. In the meantime:

Originally posted by Monk:

As an example of why this would be nice, starting relic trade for rando boss relic, i received the velvet choker, which is game over the second you pick it up (On silencer anyway) regardless of your build, it is a game over relic. So getting it from neow, means you can't even just abandon really, because you have to at least get to the first boss for a reset on those neow options, max hp is eh and next three combats 1 hp enemies is a massive gamble. So, it's annoying, basically have to do a double run to reset.

Besides the adequate take on neow's lament, you'll change your mind on the other impressions.

[Khor]

Originally posted by Zu:

Never say never. In the meantime:

Originally posted by Monk:

As an example of why this would be nice, starting relic trade for rando boss relic, i received the velvet choker, which is game over the second you pick it up (On silencer anyway) regardless of your build, it is a game over relic. So getting it from neow, means you can't even just abandon really, because you have to at least get to the first boss for a reset on those neow options, max hp is eh and next three combats 1 hp enemies is a massive gamble. So, it's annoying, basically have to do a double run to reset.

Besides the adequate take on neow's lament, you'll change your mind on the other impressions.

Eh.... let me tell you... after the new patch, gambling the starting relic away is kind of a legit option

Also

Originally posted by Songbird:

Velvet Choker is the best boss relic in the game for act 1

Nope Nope Nope

[The Lone Wanderer]

There are plenty of instances that can arise for example where the choice is get a curse card or die because your hp is low for example. So that argument is dismissed.

Getting an extra energy pern turn and limiting your playable cards only works for a high energy nuke deck, silencer is weak on this style of play compared to the others, only kind of viable if you get ice cream because silencers extra energy relies mostly on card discards and relics. SO no, I don't agree with that at all.

Sure, act 1 it's fine, but act 3 and 4 will get you killed.

Echo form is blue, so unless you got the prismatic and chance it, I don't think you'd ever have it on silencer.

No, there are plenty of other reasons, sometimes you have a larger deck and the draw order just gives you the finger, that is a fact. So I'm sorry but your rebuttals don't make sense for silencer and I will have to disregard. However, a lot of that advice does work with the automaton, which unfortunately the silencer is not, but thanks for the reply.

Try getting past Act 4 heart as silencer with velvet choker, please send me a vid as I"m yet to find one and have been acitvely searching.


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Sorry, but I doubt I'll change my mind, I changed my mind to these impressions after garnering experience.

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Thank you, I don't always re-roll boss relic, usually it's my default if I don't like the other options, usually ones offering curses.

I agree, Velvet relic is fine for act 1, yes, but late game it WILL kill you.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I should add, I'm not faulting the RNG of the game, that adds to it's replayability, what I"m asking for is more ways to deal with the outcomes of the RNG.

[DJDiceZ]

Velvet Choker is fine on Poison Silent, and can likely be worked with on some other decks. Yes, act 4. If you don't want to believe it, no one can change your mind, but act 4 wins have definitely happened with Choker. Decks that actually play 6+ cards a turn aren't the majority. That's an entire hand+draw/retain or something. Some deadly poisons, burst, catalysts, or whatever poison cards, and the heart can be killed in 3-4 turns. Caltrops + Block or something can just do the rest of the damage for you. Don't need to play 7 cards a turn to achieve that.

@Khor The beta indeed right now makes relic swaps a much more interesting option, since the boss relic pool has changed quite a lot.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I considered the possibility of stacking catalysts, but even then, you need the right relics to substitute your block or to buffer your energy, otherwise you're wasting too many of your 6 card limit getting the poison chain out while still staying alive. I can sort of see it working if you can bank the apparition cards, but beyond that, I find it hard to believe unless you get lucky enough to stack like three upgraded catalysts with a poison or two and maybe a crippling cloud. It's why I'm asking for a video legitimately, I'd love to see how it's done.

Even if you pick up no curse cards and remove superfluous cards from your deck with any card removal pop ups you still need to draw in the right order for it to work properly, I mean, getting all your catalysts first hand without any other kind of poison could easily get you wiped as well.

A lot also rides in the pre-heart elite fight and how you did there as well and how much HP you have left. I don't think I've ever finished that fight on full hp unless I've got corpse explosion or a relic/card combo to chain a lot of cards (with silencer). But to be fair, I haven't put as much effort into strategising that fight as I probably should.

[The Lone Wanderer]

This has gone off on a tangent about the velvet choker, it was just an example, the main point was a relic removal something. Another example, if you spin the goblin wheel and he stiffs you with a deck ruining relic, sure don't spin the wheel is an option, but sometimes you want to or you're hunting a specific relic so you chance it. There are plenty of others. Like maybe you want to get rid of a bad face relic.

Some form of relic removal instance is what I'm after.

[gruetoo]

i'm certain that except for the starting relic trade, there is always the option to just leave without taking the relic.

[Dusk_Army]

Originally posted by gruetoo:

i'm certain that except for the starting relic trade, there is always the option to just leave without taking the relic.

Gremlin Wheel disagrees. Though, I'm pretty sure that's the only way the game gives you a Relic without giving you any option to skip it.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by Monk:

There are plenty of instances that can arise for example where the choice is get a curse card or die because your hp is low for example. So that argument is dismissed.

Getting an extra energy pern turn and limiting your playable cards only works for a high energy nuke deck, silencer is weak on this style of play compared to the others, only kind of viable if you get ice cream because silencers extra energy relies mostly on card discards and relics. SO no, I don't agree with that at all.

Sure, act 1 it's fine, but act 3 and 4 will get you killed.

Echo form is blue, so unless you got the prismatic and chance it, I don't think you'd ever have it on silencer.

No, there are plenty of other reasons, sometimes you have a larger deck and the draw order just gives you the finger, that is a fact. So I'm sorry but your rebuttals don't make sense for silencer and I will have to disregard. However, a lot of that advice does work with the automaton, which unfortunately the silencer is not, but thanks for the reply.

Try getting past Act 4 heart as silencer with velvet choker, please send me a vid as I"m yet to find one and have been acitvely searching.


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Sorry, but I doubt I'll change my mind, I changed my mind to these impressions after garnering experience.

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Thank you, I don't always re-roll boss relic, usually it's my default if I don't like the other options, usually ones offering curses.

I agree, Velvet relic is fine for act 1, yes, but late game it WILL kill you.

There is exactly one instance where you are forced to take a curse to not die, and that curse is Decay, which isn't anywhere near as dangerous and Pain and Regret (which can be run-ending with Runic Pyramid or if left in your deck for too long). OP specifically mentioned Pain. You can get a Pain with a terrific upside from the forge event, but it's ultimately your choice as to whether it's worth the risk.

I forgot about Gremlin Wheel event which can randomly give you any curse, but I mean, that event can also just kill you when you're low on health, so, yeah.

Velvet Choker absolutely does not kill you lategame. You can beat the heart with it just fine. You just build your deck around not needing to spam low-impact cards. If you have 4 energy, it's fairly difficult to play more than 6 cards a turn to begin with outside of Offering and Adrenaline+, or on Watcher (who is a WIP character and has some real issues with very binary play later on where she either explodes and cycles through 20 energy on one turn or does basically nothing).

[Zu]

Originally posted by Dusk_Army:

Originally posted by gruetoo:

i'm certain that except for the starting relic trade, there is always the option to just leave without taking the relic.

Gremlin Wheel disagrees. Though, I'm pretty sure that's the only way the game gives you a Relic without giving you any option to skip it.

They've long since made it so you can decline it.

[The Lone Wanderer]

Well, for some builds, drawing too many cards too fast can also be pretty detrimental, like drawing all your apparitions in your first hand (has happened before) without them being upgraded so maybe you want to get rid of your serpent ring.

But I was thinking, an option to walk away from the wheel of change without spinning might be nice, it wasn't that long ago they fixed the issue of getting stuck if the only cards you had left were bottled, although I can't really think of any instances where that's going to happen.

Still, sell a relic or trade one in. Swap or exchange a relic, maybe you have one that's not a detriment just not all that useful and you want to swap it out. There are many of reasons to want to get rid of or swap out a relic, an instance that gives the opportunity is only going to add to the game, even if it comes with a cost that makes it a hard to weigh option.

[Gentlest Giant]

I think the fundamental design issue with player-influenced relic removal is that a portion of them have lasting or instantaneous effects, meaning you keep the full benefit of the relic even after it's gone. Neow's Lament, Strawberry, Potion Belt, May bank etc.

Otherwise, don't see too much point in it. The only relics that can feasibly harm you are some boss relics and potentially dead branch or the bottles. Juzu bracelet might trigger some obscure opportunity cost. The common thread here is that you don't pick them if they do.

[DJDiceZ]

Originally posted by Gentle Giant:

I think the fundamental design issue with player-influenced relic removal is that a portion of them have lasting or instantaneous effects, meaning you keep the full benefit of the relic even after it's gone. Neow's Lament, Strawberry, Potion Belt, May bank etc.

Otherwise, don't see too much point in it. The only relics that can feasibly harm you are some boss relics and potentially dead branch or the bottles. Juzu bracelet might trigger some obscure opportunity cost. The common thread here is that you don't pick them if they do.

It probably wouldn't be hard to make so that used up relics have no value. It has issues, but i don't think that's the one.