Energy relics (and boss relics in general) are poorly balanced.

[letir]

Energy is important. It's powerful boost to the player.

And yet energy relics isn't some guaranted reward for overcoming boss challenge - they are hiden between two additional RNG walls.

First, you must get energy relic in the reward window. Yes, for some reason complemetary rewards like Astrolabe and Empty Cage considered equal to +1 energy. They are not, honestly.

Second, you must actually get worthwhile relic without devastating downsides. Yes, it is a thing, because some disadvantage are barelly noticeable (Cursed Key), or can be useful for some builds (Mark of Pain), while others giving huge drawbacks (Velvet Chocker and Runic Dome).

I don't understand why it's a thing. Having acess to the 4 points of energy in the Act 2 can be gamechanging. Not having acess to this in the Act 3 probably game ending, unless player run extremly specialized and thin deck without any wrong moves.

Any other rewards just cannot compare, not outside special builds for them. Energy boost should be default reward for the Act 1 boss. Let other "extremly useful" relics like Shecko Eye or Tiny Pyramid compete for the player attention, it will be much more fair.

[Scathe]

here is another thread where the OP has similar thoughts on this topic to the OP of this thread, I link it because I think it should be noted that the idea of having a better chance at more energy from boss relics seems popular, and because the person who made the thread has a tier system for rating boss relics that I found interesting. this thread is in the suggestions and ideas sub forum of the slay the spire forums, which is why some of you may not have seen it:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/646570/discussions/2/2806204039989700377/

I don't agree with throwing out so much energy as some people have advocated, but do think the balance could be better if there was one more energy relic in the boss pool and one of the least popular boss relics(tiny house) was removed or changed to be that energy relic. here is my revised suggestions:

either
1) buff happy flower to 1 energy every two turns and switch its place with tiny house
or
2) change tiny house to have 1 energy every 3 turns, gain 30 gold, upgrade one random card, gain 5 hp, no other effects.

Originally posted by Benkyo:

Well, one point glossed over so far is that boss relics probably aren't intended to be balanced.

You can start every game with one of them if you are inclined to gamble, and the reason strong players who want high win ratios don't do this is because some of them are worse than your starting relics. If they were always better, it wouldn't be a gamble.

I think this is a good point, which is why only going after one relic, to make things slightly more favorable to the player without doing too much seems like a good move to me.

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

Nuclear Battery will often result in the plasma being evoked - thereby not being a "true" energy relic (it even displays as (n+1)/n).

I think nuclear battery has a minimum of 3 energy gain, if you evoke it first turn, right? it would take until at least the 5th turn to equal that for a 1 energy every 2 turns relic, many fights are over by then, and it is still a minimum amount for the battery, as I mentioned before, the battery could also outperform a regular energy relic in the right deck. I think happy flower does also show as (n+1)/n when it gives you energy, right?

[Khor]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

I was agreeing with you (and just kite-shaming). I'm not always confrontational, I swear!

Eh, confrontational isn't necessarily bad
I read it:
- Kite sux!
- no, Kite is terrible!
And i was like

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

I don't like taking those sort of gambles. PB in Act 1 is just too risky for me. It's sort of like going to the casino... Some people make it big while others are just hoping to come out even.

Yes, but:
In Joinrbs numbers: getting an Energy Relic act 1 raises the average winrate(a20) from about 40% to 60%
Taking a Black Star or the dreaded Tiny House won`t change that and, on average, you would lose and you`ll still need a bout of luck to win.
Taking PB force that luck check at the Boss, a good roll can easily put you back on the winning path.
Basically, it`s a gamble that statistically (but obviously case by case, like, i have 2 Legworks imma keeping my Defends kthxbye) may be well worth taking.

If you`re still not even a tiny bit convinced, we`ll agree to disagree

Originally posted by mar:

Originally posted by Benkyo:

Well, one point glossed over so far is that boss relics probably aren't intended to be balanced.

You can start every game with one of them if you are inclined to gamble, and the reason strong players who want high win ratios don't do this is because some of them are worse than your starting relics. If they were always better, it wouldn't be a gamble.

This is why i want to separate energy bonus from boss relics whatsoever. It's too important for "average" deck to simply dismiss as "unnecessary".

This was discussed a long time ago and for a moment actually considered by the Developers (or so they said)
In the end it didn`t really weighted THAT much in normal games aand so it stayed like this.

[Dave Mongoose]

The boss relics are *meant* to be situational to force you to define your deck - the ones with strong benefits like extra energy all have trade-offs, whereas Tiny House and Empty Cage have weaker effects because they don't have downsides. That's why boss chests are the only place where you have to choose between relics.

Buffing Happy Flower or adding +Energy to Tiny House would make them far too strong and obvious / boring choices.

As others have said, there are a lot of ways to build strong decks that don't need extra energy (or get it from cards rather than relics).

Originally posted by Scathe:

I think nuclear battery has a minimum of 3 energy gain, if you evoke it first turn, right? it would take until at least the 5th turn to equal that for a 1 energy every 2 turns relic

You can't really compare them like that.

Nuclear Battery works as a boss relic because it encourages interesting decks - it can be very strong _if_ you build around it, but it could be useless or even get in the way in certain situations.

An extra energy every other turn is beneficial to almost any deck and there isn't much trade-off. It also doesn't have many interesting synergies other than draw manipulation which a lot of decks will do anyway.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Dave Mongoose:

Blasting Scathe's idea...

I disagree with you Sir, but I'm afraid pushing my arguement harder is more likely to result in Nuclear Battery nerfs than in convincing the Devs to include a boss relic with energy every 2-3 turns and no drawback, and I don't want that, so I think I'm going to try to convince myself to stop posting in this thread, good day.

[Ellye]

I really feel that, for this style of game, balance is boring.

Sometimes you're dealt something that is weak and needs to adapt on the fly to make it work. That's part of the fun, for me.

[Songbird]

Runic Pyramid and Sneko Eye are some of the strongest relics in the game unless your deck is just horribly unfitting for them. You can still win on three energy quite handily with relics like these. Sneko's reliance on high-cost cards when you take it is grossly overstated--as long as you are running a deck that wants to cycle itself quickly (to find powers, to replay one card a ton) and which does not need to play every card in your hand every turn, Sneko Eye is amazingly good and only gets better with future card rewards. Astrolabe is almost always fairly strong as well (very significantly stronger than Pandora's Box in my experience--the upgrades make a very big difference).

Hovering Kite and Velvet Choker generally are the only two boss relics with the blatant potential to kill your run entirely outside of very specific circumstances. Coffee Dripper can kill an already struggling run too, but it doesn't actively make you take a lot more damage sometimes like the other two do.

I finish plenty of 3-energy ascension runs all the way through act 4, even sometimes taking crap like Lizard Tail that never procs because the other offerings are like, choker and Tiny House. You also tend to not notice the fact that your run died where it might have lived because you took Sozu since there's never hard evidence that this is the case.

Above all else--this is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ roguelike. You will have bad RNG. Trying to win anyway is part of the game. Card RNG and fight/event RNG is definitely a lot more significant to the run than boss relic RNG.

[letir]

Originally posted by Lupus Albus:

Above all else--this is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ roguelike. You will have bad RNG. Trying to win anyway is part of the game. Card RNG and fight/event RNG is definitely a lot more significant to the run than boss relic RNG.

RNG with cards can be miltigated with card removal, discard/exhaust cards, with big number of draws.

Energy hunger, on the other hand, are much more harsher problem. No matter how much fitting, good, upgraded card you have in your hand if you cannot play them properly.

And I certnaly can see, that my runs going more stable with 4 energy. It's much more easer to play 2-3 energy cards when i can afford to cover bases with remaining energy. With 2 forgiving energy relics i can basicly play my entire hand every turn, which is pretty useful in the pinch.

[Bishop]

So I just entered another run where clearing first two bosses net me zero energy relics. After second boss I was forced to concede because my deck had no real way to cheat mana and 3 floor would be unwinnable anyway. There is good random, bad random and stupid random that should not be a part of the game. Not geting guarantee energy relic from at least one of bosses goes into third category.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by mar:

Originally posted by Lupus Albus:

Above all else--this is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ roguelike. You will have bad RNG. Trying to win anyway is part of the game. Card RNG and fight/event RNG is definitely a lot more significant to the run than boss relic RNG.

RNG with cards can be miltigated with card removal, discard/exhaust cards, with big number of draws.

No, I mean which cards you are offered during the run. A Silent run that never sees Footwork and is shown Grand Finale, Unload, and Tools of the Trade after the act 1 boss is going to have a hard time. One that is offered four copies of Footwork or two copies of Wraith Form will almost certainly win the run.

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Bishop:

So I just entered another run where clearing first two bosses net me zero energy relics. After second boss I was forced to concede because my deck had no real way to cheat mana and 3 floor would be unwinnable anyway. There is good random, bad random and stupid random that should not be a part of the game. Not geting guarantee energy relic from at least one of bosses goes into third category.

You had a run that made it to act 3 where you weren't offered Snecko Eye/Runic Pyramid/Any energy relic/some sort of pseudo energy card (corruption, offering, seeing red, bloodletting, adrenaline, flying knee, concentration, double energy, turbo, etc)? The odds of that are literally astronomical unless you decided to visit like 15 ? rooms in the first two acts.

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

Originally posted by Bishop:

So I just entered another run where clearing first two bosses net me zero energy relics. After second boss I was forced to concede because my deck had no real way to cheat mana and 3 floor would be unwinnable anyway. There is good random, bad random and stupid random that should not be a part of the game. Not geting guarantee energy relic from at least one of bosses goes into third category.

You had a run that made it to act 3 where you weren't offered Snecko Eye/Runic Pyramid/Any energy relic/some sort of pseudo energy card (corruption, offering, seeing red, bloodletting, adrenaline, flying knee, concentration, double energy, turbo, etc)? The odds of that are literally astronomical unless you decided to visit like 15 ? rooms in the first two acts.

The odds are not low, it happened to me two times yesterday as a silent. Only garbage non manacheting relics from first 2 bosses. I beat the game second time on asc 8 but was forced to skip the heart because there was no chance to even bother to beat it like this.

[letir]

Originally posted by Bishop:

So I just entered another run where clearing first two bosses net me zero energy relics. After second boss I was forced to concede because my deck had no real way to cheat mana and 3 floor would be unwinnable anyway. There is good random, bad random and stupid random that should not be a part of the game. Not geting guarantee energy relic from at least one of bosses goes into third category.

My first sucessgul run against Heart net me 2 energy relics without big downsides AND ice cream (retain unspent enrgy between turns). Good time.

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Bishop:

The odds are not low, it happened to me two times yesterday as a silent. Only garbage non manacheting relics from first 2 bosses. I beat the game second time on asc 8 but was forced to skip the heart because there was no chance to even bother to beat it like this.

You went two entire games without seeing ANY energy generating cards (many of which are common/uncommon) nor some of the various energy relics such as Lantern/Sundial/Flower? I somehow seriously doubt it. It's possible, but again, the odds are astronomical if you played optimally.
Also, a lot of the boss relics are not garbage, most players just don't recognize their worth. Moreover, I've beaten the heart on 3 energy on A20. Plenty (okay, a "few") others have too - so it's clearly not something that has "no chance".