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https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2565262170&searchtext=
"Dumbing down' (err, simplifying) commands will just lead to more grind (repetitiveness) due to less choices.
Less choices is really a backwards design decision. Also, it feels like a bait and switch... particularly for a game NOT in early access. It was released with these features and now they are taking them away?
You know that 2.0 is still on a separate beta branch and none of the changes are permanent yet?
It's a normal part of beta branches to test major gameplay changes.
You gave the game a bad review only because there is a possibility that it can become worse in the future.
It's survived multiple iterations of patches, and an enormous pile of negative feedback. It's a safe bet we're stuck with it.
My advice: skip mining altogether until you can do mining carriers in Trinium.
Jump to sector A > Mine > Jump to sector B > Refine > Loop
This allowed mining ships to gather all available asteroids in a sector until the sector is depleted. Then you could send the ship into another loop with other sectors.
The devs didn't like that players were exploiting the respawn rate of asteroids and making mining a passive activity and stated that the commands code was a mess, so they removed command loops and replaced them with specialized captains.
To say these captains are under performing would be an understatement.
This change forces people to do mining manually to get even remotely close to the efficiency they had with command loops.
This comes to bite people late game where you're in command of 6-10 ships and want to go towards the center / do more combat or mission stuff / turn towards the strategy aspect by controlling their whole fleet... but the inefficient mining forces you to do it yourself or babysit your captains and just sit there and waste your time
I don't care about endless loops even though I welcome them and I also don't need huge amounts of ressources being gathered.
Now the mining itself is only calculated when done by the AI with the new orders. Yes they return to map from time to time either because of an attack or for another reason. It however is not comparable at all with the old orders that cause player owned ships to be physically presented in other sectors at all times.
With the old orders you also have direct control of your mining ships since you are able to tell them exactly in which order they should mine the sectors and where they have to travel to. In comparisson to that the new order shows you a square on the galaxy map that you can select a cluster of sector for ships to mine in. This action feels like one out of a mobile game to me because once you have chosen an area for a ship to mine you will get ressource income periodically for a chosen amount of hours.
For some players those new orders are a benefit since everything around mining is annoying to them so they want to have everything about it as simple as possible and for some the old mining is better for various reasons.
Balancing is not a valid argument for the new mining orders, as the old mining could have easily been balanced out as well.
Lets look at the timetable:
1. only the direct asteroid to ressource mining lasers existed 1st and mining was kinda slow, not to slow in my opinion.
2. r-mining lasers were added and the need to refine ressources at a depot was introduces with it including extremly high yields.
3. orders were replaced and with them mining was nerfed again generally speaking.
-> the 2 types of mining lasers are still very unbalanced. Mining lasers become useless quickly once players find r-mining lasers as the % gained out of an asteroid skyrockets with r-mining.
-> respawning ressource asteroids can also be tweaked to reduce mining yields if it was even planed to balance the yields. But I doubt it since the new yields just seem to be a random side effect just like the changes to dps numbers on turret randomly changing over the past 2 years without it being on purpose.
Truth is that both sides are not wrong with what they say. The difference is that the old mining was taken away from us 1.5 years after game release and NONE OF THE PLAYERS were asking for it. ALL the arguments that I heared towards the new orders failed to convince me. I call this a mistake, one the devs decided to live with but not me. I will gladly take mods to reverse all those changes.
The fun part is that there is always another steam user to say "the new orders are actually better, because..." or " I dont understand why some people like the old orders more" ( there are plenty threads with explanations out there already)
It's a dumpster after a rain storm on a hot summer day.
There's a paradox here that I find really fascinating. I think it's probably also really instructive for game designers if they can figure it out (if that is even possible).
Here's the thing: the whole point of the mining loop was so that you never had to interact with that miner ever again.
And _yet_ people (or a subset of people) consistently complain that _that_ was the fun (or a large portion of the fun - enough to stop playing if it is taken away!) they had while playing the game.
If I'm playing a game where the most fun you can have is to walk away (e.g. Monopoly) - I'm not going to be in a rush to play that game again.
So something quite different must be in play here.
--------
I don't have a perfect or even good explanation for this. I have some theories:
(1) it might be that the mining loop actually involves mastering some kind of skill or unlocking some kind of puzzle. _Anecdotally_ I found that people's descriptions of how the process worked (you just leave and come back and the sector reloads!) were basically false in that most of the time that didn't actually work. I had mostly given up on R-mining as a bad joke when I did finally get it to work - but the 'working solution' was considerably more complex than people's hand-waving.
People like mastering skills, and gaming based on optimising even repetitive or mechanical skills (e.g. driving a truck in ET2000) can give a huge payoff for the player if they hit 'the zone'.
But I don't think anybody gets in the zone purely with loop mining - _because_ it's something that when you get it to work requires no more fiddling.
(1a) someone else suggested that when people learn a skill, they react badly when that is taken away, and there may be an element of that. It can certainly be something that games which are under continual development can struggle with.
If old system A is hard to use and a barrier for new players to enter, and it is replaced with new system B which is much easier to understand and more 'noob-friendly' - the older players _always_ complain.
Mastering A was how they got into the club, so they think all new members of the club should also be forced to undergo that initiation ritual.
(NB: in this example the new system is better than the old - but this should not be generalised to new things _always_ being better than old things; and it would be a very bad misreading to interpret that as me somehow slyly saying the new mining missions are better than loop mining.)
(1b) one paradox of skill based games is their barrier to entry, but it is also the skill involved in the game that keeps people coming back - especially if there's still room for improvement, or they have mastered it and can 'zen it'.
(2) It might be that people secretly like it for the AFK. E.g. I set up loop mining, go walk the dog, have a skype meeting, do some chores (etc.) and come back to the game and am 'rewarded' with a small mountain of resources. And now I build my mega-ship and cruise around crushing my foes before me.
There's certainly a big appeal to the ego there.
But if that's correct then the problem with the new mining isn't that it's AFK - it's somehow the _wrong_ kind of AFK.
Perhaps one of the keys there is that people consistently complain that they don't like it AND it provides lesser rewards than the old system.
So did they like the loop mining, or did they like the thing that loop mining enabled? E.g. if someone says they like slaying dragons and taking their treasure is the point that they like the fighting, or that they like the treasure?
I'm not sure that's necessarily the answer either, because BW buffed mining gains significantly by increasing the number of blank asteroids with resources hidden inside them AND gave a 50% boost to selling income when selling materials.
So the treasure pile is bigger in the new system (if you ignore missions) - but nobody gives a ♥♥♥♥.
If you double the returns from mining over what they used to be, and people complain that the returns from mining are ♥♥♥♥, then something else is in play here.
(Also - buffing the returns from things people complain about is usually bad because it is inherently inflationary, but I digress)
(3) I've been thinking about this a lot (in context of other changes, not in isolation) and one of my conclusions was that I really don't get much enjoyment out of the loading screens.
(a) it takes me 'out' of the game. (b) there's nothing skill based I can do while I'm blocked by it
2.0 greatly reduces the jump distance, which greatly increases the number of loading screens.
2.0 by getting rid of galaxy map mining instructions greatly increased the amount of screen loading for giving instructions to ships.
(E.g. If I am certain the ship has stopped/finished doing whatever it was doing I have to move the ship to a new location and then switch into the ship (or same sector) and give it a new instruction, and then switch back to my first ship to continue with whatever I was doing, that's taken something which took approx ~1 second, and turned it into something which is ~20-50 seconds (depending largely on how long two screen loads takes).
But it might take more than that. And I might have to either trawl back through the chat, or jump into the sector even just to check whether it's still doing what I told it to.
And if I find that it hasn't, and I jump it to a new location, that's at least one (though more likely two or three (see also: jump range nerfs)) additional loading screens.
For me personally, I think that 2.0 _in general_ is a better, more nuanced version of Avorion. Unfortunately the ratio of amount of time I spend playing the 'improved' game and the amount of time I spend twiddling my thumbs while screens load has drastically shifted, and not for the better.
With the old command loop system I'd start a game and make a miner and a combat ship. Both would be exceptionally weak but this was a starting point.
The miner was there to get me iron and titanium while I jumped around and did some minor trades or deliveries to earn my starting cash. Once the miner well....mined enough I would build 2 escort ships to go with my main ship.
Once enough iron was harvested they woul get sized up to around 6 slots and I'd start going after the local pirate riff raff and head to Naonite. Once I arrived I'd bring the miner over, size it up, slap R-Mining, and build 2 more copies, and set them to work so I could get my 3 combat ships some shields and other upgrades.
This loop would continue all the way to core with upgrades and allowed me to passively get the materials I needed while farming bosses and pirates for better turrets and mods.
As it is now? 3 hours for 50k Iron is just pathetic nevermind the knowledge restrictions preventing me from powering up my ships.
Edit: forgot to mention the primary reason you would want this method is that sizing up to a 15-slot ship can cost you 100+ MILLION Credits and 20-30 MILLION resources each ship!!!
aaaand the award goes to rickcarson. Good job on not reading/understanding the comments we have written at all.
"setup mining orders and dont touch them again at all or walk away" is what he takes out of the old mining system. And yet here he is still present in avorion v2.0! WHat endurance must you have had to come back to avorion after walking away from it because you did setup up a mining loop once to never return to the game afterwards.
The really paradox thing is you popping up in every discussion related to this topic to make wild and totally wrong assumptions about behind us liking the old mining over the new one. Why do you even waste so much time to write that much when you 100% ignore what other people write? Are you being paid to talk the v1 orders bad or whats going?
If you want to understand the opinions of others you have to actually READ to understand their arguments instead of puzzling it together with your own mind which obviously is uncappable to find the right reasoning. As I see it your refuse to understand us and since you refuse it you won't ever understand our arguments at all.