Weapon Questions.

[The_DigitalAlchemist]

Back again with more questions. Letting the old thread die for now.

1 (and a big one) ) Is there a mod that shows a turrets *ACTUAL* DPS? As in, factoring in how many slots it uses as well as fire time and cool down?

I ask this because it's actually infuriating to find an exotic turret, get excited at it's big DPS number, only to realize it's a 3 slot turret with 10 seconds of fire and 20 second cool down. This tends to more oft than not make it useless, and I hate having to bust out a calculator just to figure out if the exotic 1200dps 3 slot weapon with it's 12.6 seconds of fire and 18.4 seconds of cooldown I just got is worse than a 1 slot titanium turret that does 300 dps with no cooldown.

2) What are the damage types, and what do they mean? If anything important that is. I'm curious if Physical is bad, or just all rounded for example. I know some mean more damage to hull or shields for example, but does that mean they do *less* damage to other things, or is it just a straight bonus? Is that bonus used in it's calculation? Like, should I be really concerned between physical and electric main type damage?

The reason I ask these things is because I'm having a hard time not justifying just putting chainguns all over my ship. Everything else, even if it's got a 1:1 fire to cooldown ratio, still means it's actual dps is halved. To me, that means it usually ends up being crap because I can have a 400 dps per slot chaingun that just fires forever, or a 700 dps weapon that only fires for less than half the time and usually takes up more slots. And that's how most of these higher tier weapons I'm finding simply are.

[SkollUlfr]

there is an option in the menu for extended tooltips. this will show dps/slot. but the game will still sort turrets by overall dps. though there is a feature request on the official avorion server to have sort by dps/added.

damage type bonus is just that. a bonus.
there are hull and shield upgrades that provide modifiers to damage resistance. which do have a trade off.

chainguns are the general purpose weapon of the game, so understandable why you want them.
the thing to look at as how much time you are actually on target for. due to travel time and target manouvers, the effective range and dps might be a lot lower than the tooltip due to missing.

which is why rails are so dangerous. their possible dps and actual dps is much closer due to being hitscan

[gussmed]

I’m still very much a new player where combat is concerned, but it’s pretty clear raw DPS isn’t everything. Range and projectile speed matters. I’m not up to railguns yet, but lasers are an example of a weapon that is more consistent in doing damage than chain guns. A great many chaingun shots miss.

Further, burst damage is often more important that simple DPS, because in a flyby situation, you only have a short window to attack. Sometimes you end up dead in space relative to another ship, kicking each other in the shins, but that’s usually bad tactics because you’re getting hit by everyone.

[Chaoslink]

This is why I feel like the entire balance of the game from damage to health and beyond needs a further rework than it already got. Turret values still have too much RNG as a good roll requires a better than 50% roll in some 4 different categories to just be average. This makes Factory crafted turrets massively superior than random drop legendary turrets of even 10-15 tech levels higher simply because you can get the max rolls in the different categories by adding more parts. The game's balance has always been out of control, its still an issue now.

[OndeTv]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

[...]a good roll requires a better than 50% roll in some 4 different categories to just be average. This makes Factory crafted turrets massively superior than random drop legendary turrets[...]

This i actually like. It is like drops in typical ARPG games (diablo, path of exile, grim dawn and torchlight just to name a few). It keeps the turret hunting fresh and you get excited when you get new upgrades.

If anything (and that is my personal view), turret factories should be toned down so that a player generally can create good average turrets there, but to get the really good ones, they must be from drops or "roll luck" on merchants.

That would keep the game fresh for much longer. Almost every time i have stopped a playthrough, it has been because i became far too powerful for any enemies around which killed the fun (aside from once where i stopped due to station bugs >.< ).

Just my 2 cents :)

[OndeTv]

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

[...]snip[...]

While you are partly right, there are many other factors like the posts above explain. And those factors will largely include your playstyle, your ship(s) and your enemies. So while chainguns may actually be the best for you right now, that will most likely change later on.

The good thing though, is that most weapon types are viable for something (even force turrets - i'll let you figure that one out yourself :) ).

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by OndeTv:

It keeps the turret hunting fresh and you get excited when you get new upgrades.

Yet that's never been how I've felt it works. That randomness is so significant that when I see a purple drop in the distance there's two moments that typically happen before I make an opinion. First I have a 50% chance to be disappointed completely or possibly excited depending on whether or not I spot it as a turret or system upgrade. If its an upgrade at least there's a chance its something good. If its a turret I don't even bother to look, there's only some 5% chance that its remotely good. Secondly, If its a system upgrade there's a possibility its good, something mediocre or something that's just fodder for the research artifact. This kinda goes for most things, its very rare that a turret drops of any rarity that makes me excited as that randomness is so great that most of the time they're not really worth using and the sell value isn't even all that much if it isn't.

That's my issue with it, were the balance to be made such that those drops were actually something I could get excited for, that'd be different, but there's so many variables to what makes any given turret good. Most aren't. Enough that I've had green turrets of tech 10 that are better (by a decent margin) than a purple of tech 20. The ranges and possibilities of the RNG are just too great. I don't necessarily want every purple drop to be some godly thing, but they're so consistently complete trash that I can't get excited when a purple drops unless its a system upgrade. That shouldn't happen. I mean, imagine other games when you see a drop of the highest rarity and you can't even get excited enough to bother looking at it.

[The_DigitalAlchemist]

Thanks for all the replies! Kinda disappointed that the RNG is so atrocious. I've also only just started to really see railguns, but they're doing like 1/3rd the DPS of other things. My big issue atm is knocking shields down, but once they're out of the picture things just get deleted because i focus on taking out weapons and engines. I also tend to fight within 3km when I can, so my high dps chainguns tend to have very high consistency, though sometimes you get a runner and that doesnt work so well. At which point, I tend to, uh... Ram them to get them to stop.

Though, I question the "value" of burst DPS, because at the end of the day a lot of these enemy ships have like 2-400k hp shields I gata chew through, and that takes me a bit.

Couple more questions:

Do your own turret factories still cost credits outside of the parts? Because a couple BP's I've wanted to make were like, 4 million credits
.
How exactly do turret factories work?
-I've heard theres RNG upon RNG with them. Is that on a "per turret" basis, or will one factory just make an overall better turret than another? I
-f that's the case, can you refund them if you dont like the one you built?
-What determines their "Tech Level", or is this not a thing player stations have to deal with?

Can you intentionally and specifically build ionized weapons (shield penetrating)? Because I really like these guns. They can take out key components before the shields go down and cripple the enemy.


I've also just remembered that Research is a thing. Found a research station (of which theres only like, 6 i've ever found, out of nearly 100 sectors). I also discovered a quirk that researched weapons are actually at a tech level appropriate for the area. Which I find interesting, meaning you can farm items from low tier areas, and build them into high tier weapons.

As such, I'm considering going back to Naonite/Tritium areas and making a few enemies of the locals and pillage some equipment stations. I've only actually got 2 combat ships, but I think they can handle them. I'll probably start with pirate stations first and just baby stomp them to get some decent gear, then research them into good stuff to make even stronger ships.

I may also make a 3rd combat ship just to these ends, but I may decide to reserve those credits for a factory or two, because credits atm are my biggest limiting factor.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

Thanks for all the replies! Kinda disappointed that the RNG is so atrocious. I've also only just started to really see railguns, but they're doing like 1/3rd the DPS of other things.

For railguns you need to turn on the detailed turret stats. You have to exit to the main menu to turn that on. You'll then see how much penetration they have. If you have a 100 DPS railgun that has 7 block penetration, then it can be more like 700 DPS if each shot can penetrate enough blocks to hit maximum potential.

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

My big issue atm is knocking shields down, but once they're out of the picture things just get deleted because i focus on taking out weapons and engines. I also tend to fight within 3km when I can, so my high dps chainguns tend to have very high consistency, though sometimes you get a runner and that doesnt work so well. At which point, I tend to, uh... Ram them to get them to stop.

Personally, as soon as other options become available I stop using chainguns. If you consider them the jack-of-all-trades gun, it makes them pretty meh in my opinion. Their range isn't great, their damage isn't specialized, they're just consistent. However, having a bunch of plasma guns to rip shields and bolters to rip hull does the job better. It requires more management of your turret groups, but tends to be more effective for it. I suppose they're not bad, but other than my miners back in Iron, I tend to not use them. I could see myself using a few with independent targeting to double as DPS guns and point defense, but I find lasers more consistent for that.

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

Though, I question the "value" of burst DPS, because at the end of the day a lot of these enemy ships have like 2-400k hp shields I gata chew through, and that takes me a bit.

Specialized weapons like plasma can focus shields with a significant damage boost. SO a 100DPS plasma gun might not seem crazy, but the extra shields damage helps burn those shields away. Once the shields are gone, you can switch to anti-matter and delete the hull. The key is switching turret groups for what the weapons are effective against and letting them cool down when not needed. It takes more micro management of your turret groups, but tends to increase your effectiveness in combat. Sustained damage weapons are better against things like stations where you'll always land your damage and the target will take multiple full cycles of cooldowns for burst weapons. Everything has its place.

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

Couple more questions:

Do your own turret factories still cost credits outside of the parts? Because a couple BP's I've wanted to make were like, 4 million credits
.
How exactly do turret factories work?
-I've heard theres RNG upon RNG with them. Is that on a "per turret" basis, or will one factory just make an overall better turret than another? I
-f that's the case, can you refund them if you dont like the one you built?
-What determines their "Tech Level", or is this not a thing player stations have to deal with?

Can you intentionally and specifically build ionized weapons (shield penetrating)? Because I really like these guns. They can take out key components before the shields go down and cripple the enemy.

Just search allied sectors for factories. Making your own is a crapshoot. All blueprints besides the ones you make using a turret you have generate randomly and only once. So if you just get a bunch of mediocre rolls, your whole station is a bust. As for costs, I'm not too sure. I tend to make enough credits that making 20 turrets of a 4 million cost is acceptable as I generally raid for the parts and sell what I don't need for the cost. The weapons are generally worth it.

Things like ionizing and what not are randomized per factory, so you have to search for a good roll. One of my last games had pulse cannons with an 89% shield pen and anti-matter shots with a decent DPS. These things took only one slot to use and tore enemies apart. I didn't even need my teslas for shields or anything else, I just ate their hull away and killed ships without even removing their shields. Its all in the luck of the rolls.

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

I've also just remembered that Research is a thing. Found a research station (of which theres only like, 6 i've ever found, out of nearly 100 sectors). I also discovered a quirk that researched weapons are actually at a tech level appropriate for the area. Which I find interesting, meaning you can farm items from low tier areas, and build them into high tier weapons.

As such, I'm considering going back to Naonite/Tritium areas and making a few enemies of the locals and pillage some equipment stations. I've only actually got 2 combat ships, but I think they can handle them. I'll probably start with pirate stations first and just baby stomp them to get some decent gear, then research them into good stuff to make even stronger ships.

I may also make a 3rd combat ship just to these ends, but I may decide to reserve those credits for a factory or two, because credits atm are my biggest limiting factor.

You can kill all the birds with that one stone really. Take a massive cargo bay with you and just pick a fight with a faction. If you have shields and they don't, you're at a massive advantage already. Just be sure to use deep scan in an allied faction area to find a smuggler and buy at least the 1 million cargo license from your ally. Then go to the Iron/titanium area and just wreck that faction. Get you can research the finds in allied areas to bump the drops to the higher tech level for possibly decent weapons and you can take a ton of cargo back to sell for credits. Don't be afraid to dump cheap cargo like corn or other things, just keep the stuff with a good price to volume ratio, and target stations like Equipment docks, Repair docks, Shipyards or military stations, basically anything that will only buy from you and always have the same cargo to buy. These items are easy to sell and consistently profitable. Then just head to the smuggler (avoid friendly faction sectors that you don't have a cargo license with) and unbrand the items and sell them to your allies. You can also target turret factories and their suppliers to get goods you can use to build your own turrets without having to pay the huge costs for the materials yourself.

[gussmed]

Originally posted by The Digital Alchemist:

Though, I question the "value" of burst DPS, because at the end of the day a lot of these enemy ships have like 2-400k hp shields I gata chew through, and that takes me a bit.

Target health isn't relevant to this question. We're not discussing alpha strikes, we're talking about time on target.

If you're only in a position where you can hit your target for 5 seconds, and then you've got to maneuver for 10 seconds to get into another firing position, it's only the damage done during that 5 seconds that counts. It's not a big deal that a turret has a reload time or a cooldown time if it recovers before you have a chance to fire again.

Doing math to calculate the DPS from a turret firing continuously only makes sense if you're actually in a position to fire continuously. You can do that if neither of you is moving, but that means you're letting everyone hit you, instead of just dealing with one or two hostiles at a time.

[OndeTv]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

[...]The ranges and possibilities of the RNG are just too great.[...]

I completely agree. The system is good, but the ranges aren't. Generally i don't get excited for "colors" aka rarity, but rather when i see something new at the top of the dps listings. Koonschi would do well to tweak those ranges (and turret factories) to bring them more in line with general ARPG style.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by OndeTv:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

[...]The ranges and possibilities of the RNG are just too great.[...]

I completely agree. The system is good, but the ranges aren't. Generally i don't get excited for "colors" aka rarity, but rather when i see something new at the top of the dps listings. Koonschi would do well to tweak those ranges (and turret factories) to bring them more in line with general ARPG style.

I think there's a few things they could do with turret factories actually. I mean, they're a massive pain in the ass, let's just be honest there. There's always one cargo item that you just can't find, getting all the items together is a chore (the quest objective thing makes it better but still is a mess) and overall they feel so mandatory because of how powerful they can be.

One thing I've been thinking on that is possibly Changing their core concepts a little, possibly diversifying them. Imagine that each faction sort of specializes in a type of weapon or two and their factories primarily make turrets of those types. Think like having an energy weapon factory that just makes Lasers, PD lasers and plasma guns. It'd offer multiple entries per rarity tier for each one, possibly guaranteeing each possible size and one or two rolls for each, as well as always having the parts for just those weapons in stock. Even making it so you can choose to use your parts or pay extra for using theirs so you can still lower the cost (make it by like 40%) if you bring your own materials, but also offer using the factory's parts as well for when you just don't want to scour the galaxy for something.

I recently spent over 15 real hours in game trying to find power units for making turrets for the friends I was playing with. Only source was a medium factory back in the Iron area that could produce only 30 at a time and hold the mats for such. Had to sit there and babysit it every 10 minutes to buy the stock and feed it mats until I had the 600-800 I needed. If the factory had less different types of turrets available but more options for those types, then each one could supply parts for just that turret and make things easier (though expensive) while also giving some factions a little more identity.

Now that isn't to say that one faction would be limited only to those turrets, there would be more variety than that, but certain types would be more prominent within the faction's territory and could be based on the types of factories they have in their economy.

While making those changes, they could also then look into the stats produced by turrets and consider limitations or tweaks that would prevent them from being so crazy in some cases. Not just in the factory either though. I just got a turret a little while ago that has some great stats, but it overheats in just 1 second and has a 14 second cooldown. I mean, why even bother. Sure, the DPS in that one second is alright, but for that kind of downtime it just isn't even close to being worth it. I feel like that isn't as bad as it used to be, with turrets that only lasted 1s being everywhere in the past, but why is that even a thing? So there's definitely room to look into that stuff while figuring out some changes to factories too.

[OndeTv]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

[... big idea ...]

Well... I agree that turret factories are a big pain in the backside. Or rather, they used to be. In my current game (which i haven't spent much time in actually) i noticed there are now new stations called turret suppliers which didn't exist in my past playthroughs. I have been able to buy every single component from a single turret supplier so far where in the past i would have to fly all over the galaxy to find the parts. On top of that, the turret supplier was right next to the turret factory.

With that said though, i never understood why the player has to supply the parts in the first place. I mean, a specialized real world factory (in general real world terms) normally already have their own suppliers as far as i am aware, and as a customer you pay them to produce something in that category of your design. It would make much more sense to me that the mechanic was getting the blueprints to the factories rather than the components. That would actually also tie in just fine with your idea, as each faction could have their own flavour of blueprints you could buy or quest for, after which you could have them produced at a turret factory.

It still wouldn't solve the core problem though:

- turrets produced at turret factories often range from good to too good

- dropped turret stat ranges are too wide per rarity, resulting in final RNG that does not correspond to the turret rarity in terms of performance