Does the game still revolve around factory turrets?

[Blaine]

I bought Avorion in Feb. 2017 and have put 170 hours into it during two playthroughs: https://i.imgur.com/IJg1zYc.png

I've more than got my money's worth from the game, and even bought a copy for a friend, but what prevents me from coming back to it again is that ultimately the game boiled down to factory turrets.

You pretty much roamed around in search of a factory that offered very strong turret stats, roamed around looking for the necessary resources, and then presto, you could obliterate enemies like they were made out of paper. Meanwhile, looted, salvaged, and purchased turrets were terrible by comparison.

There's just no in-between there and it ended up making what is otherwise an excellent and full-featured space sim a la the X series feel one-dimensional, because obtaining factory turrets is pretty much your number one concern.

[Drascalicus]

Depends on how you play. I have won twice, once a hardcore insane run, and never built turrets.

[Blaine]

Originally posted by Drascalicus:

Depends on how you play. I have won twice, once a hardcore insane run, and never built turrets.

Implying that factory turrets are still super-powerful, essentially.

There's nothing wrong with deliberately choosing not to pursue them during challenge runs, but that sort of underlines how absurdly powerful they are, I think.

I'm not super-upset about this or anything, as I said I got my money's worth and I really enjoyed the game. I just don't think I'll be playing again if random awful junk turrets vs. super-OP factory turrets is the last word in weapon balance, combat (and turrets) being a pretty important part of the game as evidenced by the recent combat and custom turret overhauls.

[Chaoslink]

They are indeed still broken in comparison. I built about 50 identical railguns. Made 120 fighters with them, stacked like 12 on my ship and literally can pop anything in a few shots. Shields don’t go down as fast, but I have a torpedo hold over 4000 and fill it with anti shields torpedoes. Nothing is a threat. I actually have to avoid game mechanics to keep things more balanced.

[Blaine]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

They are indeed still broken in comparison. I built about 50 identical railguns. Made 120 fighters with them, stacked like 12 on my ship and literally can pop anything in a few shots. Shields don’t go down as fast, but I have a torpedo hold over 4000 and fill it with anti shields torpedoes. Nothing is a threat. I actually have to avoid game mechanics to keep things more balanced.

Yeah, that's what I figured.

For me, it's not just the power of factory turrets that makes them desirable—it's that you can get turrets with identical range, fire rate, power drain, etc., instead of the usual huge mess of randomized stats.

Problem is, factory turrets also trivialize the game unless I purposely leave out a lot of components from the orders, but why would I do that? It's not that I don't have any self-control, but all of this stuff is interconnected. Having to purposely cripple yourself by using inferior components simply because the game becomes trivial otherwise is a psychological hit and frankly is poor design.

I'm hoping that someday a mod will exist to bring factory turrets' power down substantially (by 30-50%, if not more) and up random turrets' power just a tad to make all combat a bit deadlier.

I did spend some time posting on the official Avorion forums early last year, and I know that Koonschi is extremely stubborn (can be a good thing in a lead developer), so I doubt he'll change his mind because he doesn't consider this to be a problem. I do, though.

[Drascalicus]

BTW, factory turrets are not op. I assume your best turrets were ~50k DPS usually . . .

I got this one from a boss:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1526561762

[Blaine]

I don't know. It's been almost a year since I last played, which is why I'm asking. I've read official announcements/updates, but those can only convey so much information.

Mega-OP boss turrets don't necessarily mean that factory turrets aren't still super-OP compared to "normal" looted turrets and purchased turrets. They certainly were when I was playing.

[RegalKain]

Originally posted by Drascalicus:

BTW, factory turrets are not op. I assume your best turrets were ~50k DPS usually . . .

I got this one from a boss:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1526561762

That's a fairly known turret as it shows up all the time when you kill that boss with almost identical stats. And all things considered it's still way weaker then Avorion tier turrets at a turret factory. Here, these are a few turrets I asked some guys on a server to post (I just restarted on the serevr so I'm in the Iron/Titanium age.) and turrets like these are very common late-game.

Keep in mind, this spattering of turrets is from like 3 different people.

https://imgur.com/a/iUmOHyu

So yeah, Turret Factory Turrets are still super broken.

[Blaine]

Almost a year has passed since I first posted this discussion. Are factory turrets still OP?

[Chaoslink]

Pretty much yeah. There were some weapons balancing overall, but specifically how factories generate stats has gone unchanged as far as I know.

[SixtyToZero]

Factory turrets of exceptional rarity are mostly usable, but you can get lucky inside the barrier at a factory that makes tech 52 turrets. The chances of getting an OP turret this way was trimmed down a bit but all depends on the RNG gods :) Bosses are still my go to source of turrets and stuff.

[TheJebblue]

I have no plans to cross the barrier even, until I can pretty much one shot anything the game throws at me outside the barrier. As much grinding as the game makes us do now, buildable powerful turrets are the game balancer in my view.

I headed to Naonite area in a new game to be able to have shields, I have less than 100 Omicron firepower, the faction ships there have close to 2000. Anything other then weak Pirates shows up and I warp out. I can't even fight the Pirates alone, I jump in get a few shots for rep and move back.

Grind grind grind now. And someone wants to take away powerful turrets too? Wow. Someone said above in the comments they beat the game without building turrets. I literally can't imagine how that's possible and I have over 130 hours in the game now. Edit: I play on an Insane level server though.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I don't think its so much that factory turrets are OP per se, although they are. It's more that dropped turrets are intrinsically bad. For a dropped turret to be good it needs to make high rolls in multiple categories and there is a very low chance of that. Factory turrets circumvent that problem, and also grant you uniformity which makes them much easier to use (identical accuracy, range, projectile speed, etc.)

[Blaine]

Originally posted by TheDeadlyShoe:

Factory turrets being OP is a function of how bad 95%+ of dropped turrets are because you need high rolls in multiple categories for a turret to be good. And factory turrets circumvent that.

Although factory turrets are the most visible symptom of the underlying problem, that's really been my entire point from the get-go: Weapon mechanics, as a whole, need to be balanced.

Normally I'm very reluctant to suggest that a game's mechanics should be balanced, since a lot of people misuse the term "balance" (when they really just want something changed to suit their tastes, for example), but I feel comfortable using it here because the disparity is so huge.

The last time I played Avorion, good (let alone great) factory turrets obliterated every opponent effortlessly, while non-boss looted turrets were massively underpowered. Combat of any sort (not to mention the way you configure your ships) is bound to be much more interesting and satisfying when one side doesn't massively outgun the other. "Press LMB to win" is boring.

Still, a lot has probably changed in two years, so I might give it a go again anyway.

[TheJebblue]

Originally posted by Blaine:

Originally posted by TheDeadlyShoe:

Factory turrets being OP is a function of how bad 95%+ of dropped turrets are because you need high rolls in multiple categories for a turret to be good. And factory turrets circumvent that.

Although factory turrets are the most visible symptom of the underlying problem, that's really been my entire point from the get-go: Weapon mechanics, as a whole, need to be balanced.

Normally I'm very reluctant to suggest that a game's mechanics should be balanced, since a lot of people misuse the term "balance" (when they really just want something changed to suit their tastes, for example), but I feel comfortable using it here because the disparity is so huge.

The last time I played Avorion, good (let alone great) factory turrets obliterated every opponent effortlessly, while non-boss looted turrets were massively underpowered. Combat of any sort (not to mention the way you configure your ships) is bound to be much more interesting and satisfying when one side doesn't massively outgun the other. "Press LMB to win" is boring.

Still, a lot has probably changed in two years, so I might give it a go again anyway.

Is is fair for one player ship to be pitted against multiple Pirate ships, enemy faction ships and xoton ships without some way to fight? Turret Factories _are_ for balance; not deterrent to balance. I watch a YT'er who plays the game a ton and can one shot anything and still enjoys the game. That you find one shotting stuff boring is a single anecdote. Just sayin'

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Blaine:

Although factory turrets are the most visible symptom of the underlying problem, that's really been my entire point from the get-go: Weapon mechanics, as a whole, need to be balanced.

I wholeheartedly agree. Some weapon types don't really have an identity or purpose. You have the pulse cannons for instance, basically like a chaingun but it has a high chance to ignore shields. However, the incredibly low damage on the weapon for the region you get them in is like using Iron tier weapons you got in the early game in the Trinium area. The damage and DPS of them is so low that they aren't ever worth using as weapons that don't bypass shields can remove the shields and start hitting the hull enough to kill the target faster than the pulse cannon can kill the target without burning through shields first.

Other weapons like the Cannon also seem unnecessary. The Cannon has a similar damage to a Railgun, their ranges are often similar as well. The two weapons are effectively the same in function with a few key differences that effectively make the cannon the worse choice. Mostly, the travel speed. Railguns are hitscan, requiring no leading and only miss when they aren't on target when fired. This makes it incredibly easy to hit a moving target even at the weapon's maximum range. The cannon has a slow projectile that can often miss at longer ranges, lowering effective damage output. Cannon also tend to have a higher turret slot requirement on average, meaning you can have less of them. While you'll get access to Cannon earlier, it is a very small margin before railguns become available too.

These are just two examples though. Many other weapon types either cease to have a place or simply never had one to begin with. It needs an overhaul.