Historical Difference between Wermacht and OKW??

[bakalov_boy]

I know this isn't really related too much to the game but what is the historical diff between the Wermacht and the OKW? Other than the fact that they fought on different fronts, (Although based off of my knowledge the Wermacht did help in the WEST early in the war) ,what sets them apart enough to have two seperate "factions" if you will.?

[B_Loaph]

west and east

[Maschinengewehr]

Timeline period I guess? Wehrmacht (formerly Ostheer) is supposedly set in 1941-1943 and OKW is set in late 1944-early 1945. The difference in units and abilities is only for design and flavour's sake.

[Norrek]

One point is the time the armies are set up; (you could also ask for the differences between the USF in Europe and Asia, not implemented to the game.) By the way - the developer of this game should be able to anser - its a question for the game concept... . In a lot of cases its not so easy to take a different. Soldiers served on both (and the other) frontlines. This game is just a simplification of a elaborated system with several factors ("faction", time, tec., interpretation, etc.).

[Cure Seraph]

Basically they are different flavours of Nazis, for those who prefer them fresh or aged.

[Medryn]

Originally posted by CRF bakalov_boy:

I know this isn't really related too much to the game but what is the historical diff between the Wermacht and the OKW? Other than the fact that they fought on different fronts, (Although based off of my knowledge the Wermacht did help in the WEST early in the war) ,what sets them apart enough to have two seperate "factions" if you will.?

Ostheer(Werhmact0 is the 1943 eastern front German army. The OKW are the 1944 battle of the bulge German army

[bakalov_boy]

Originally posted by Lord Rahl:

Originally posted by CRF bakalov_boy:

I know this isn't really related too much to the game but what is the historical diff between the Wermacht and the OKW? Other than the fact that they fought on different fronts, (Although based off of my knowledge the Wermacht did help in the WEST early in the war) ,what sets them apart enough to have two seperate "factions" if you will.?

Ostheer(Werhmact0 is the 1943 eastern front German army. The OKW are the 1944 battle of the bulge German army

But what about the begginging of the war before Russians were involved such as the invasion of Poland and such?

[Archer]

Originally posted by CRF bakalov_boy:

Originally posted by Lord Rahl:

Ostheer(Werhmact0 is the 1943 eastern front German army. The OKW are the 1944 battle of the bulge German army

But what about the begginging of the war before Russians were involved such as the invasion of Poland and such?

You want a german army mostly composed of panzer 1s 2s and 3s? I think they won't do ♥♥♥♥ against any allied tank with a exception of a couple of really early game light tanks. Although panzer IV did exist but it was a short barrel version. Lastly, those tanks were already inferior to many allied tanks during the invasion of France and suffered a lot of losses to Polish at weaponry. So the answer is no but a rework for all factions (most likely no USF) that include units/upgrades/commander abilities that were used during that specific time line could work out.

[Trigg]

It's an artificial distinction for game purposes.

Historically, OKW stood for Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, "armed forces high command". The Wehrmacht includede the Heer (army), Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine. I don't know whether it formally included the Waffen-SS, but after Poland they were under operational control off the Heer, so they units of both types were found together in the various corps and armies.

There wasn't really much difference between the forces in the East and the forces in the West. Osttruppen and Tiger Is fought in Normandy, Volksgrenadiers and Tiger IIs fought in the east.

Some of the troop types are just made up, e..g. the Panzerfusilers. Lots of people think the made-up types represent Waffen-SS, but it is not certain.

The designers are more interested in creating a game experience than in teaching history. They wanted a second German faction, so they made some arbitrary decisions about what units would be available to each.

As mentioned above, there is supposed to be a sort of time distinction between the two factions, but you don't actually have the untits needed to create a German army at the time of the invasion of Russia.

[Aristotle Full Throttle]

Originally posted by Trigg:

It's an artificial distinction for game purposes.

Historically, OKW stood for Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, "armed forces high command". The Wehrmacht includede the Heer (army), Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine. I don't know whether it formally included the Waffen-SS, but after Poland they were under operational control off the Heer, so they units of both types were found together in the various corps and armies.

There wasn't really much difference between the forces in the East and the forces in the West. Osttruppen and Tiger Is fought in Normandy, Volksgrenadiers and Tiger IIs fought in the east.

Some of the troop types are just made up, e..g. the Panzerfusilers. Lots of people think the made-up types represent Waffen-SS, but it is not certain.

The designers are more interested in creating a game experience than in teaching history. They wanted a second German faction, so they made some arbitrary decisions about what units would be available to each.

As mentioned above, there is supposed to be a sort of time distinction between the two factions, but you don't actually have the untits needed to create a German army at the time of the invasion of Russia.

In the intel bulletins they link units in game to historical ones. Panzer Fusiliers are linked to the Heer Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland.

[Trigg]

Thanks; didn't know that. However, I think ghe GD uunit was organized with ordinary panzergrenadiers - just more of them, and a higher proportion of halftracks instead of trucks.

Also, from June '41, spent the whole war on the East front.

[Sidewinder]

Originally posted by CRF bakalov_boy:

I know this isn't really related too much to the game but what is the historical diff between the Wermacht and the OKW? Other than the fact that they fought on different fronts, (Although based off of my knowledge the Wermacht did help in the WEST early in the war) ,what sets them apart enough to have two seperate "factions" if you will.?

The problem is Lelic did ♥♥♥♥ all in terms of their research. there is no such thing as OberKommando West. OKW in the Germany army stood for OberKommando der Wehrmacht which basically means Supreme High Command of the Armed FOrces. Under OKW came OKH OKL and OKG Heers, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine respectively. OKW and OKH fought on seperate fronts and ran on their own untill abt 1945 but effectively they were the same. On paper OKW was always supposed to supercede OKH, The same army fought on both sides so its highly innacurate to beleive 2 seperate armies fought in ww2. yes a seperate army if u want was the SS but Relic are too ♥♥♥♥♥ to actually portray the SS in game. Though they were given some lethal units and tanks.
If anything instead of OKW this game shudve had OKH. becayse Wehrmacht and OKW are the same thing

[Patrykblack7]

OKW= Volkswagwn
Wermacht= Opel

[Rexus]

Technically speaking, an operational level command for the west European theatre did exist during the latter stages of the war, and it was called the ''Oberkommando West''. However, it was subordinate to the OKH (which administered all the, let's call them, theatre commands), which in its turn was subordinate to the overarching authority of the armed forces supreme command (that is, Oberkommando der Wermacht).

Actually, there is some credence in Relic's implementation of factions. It can be linked to the interplay of internal politics of higher commanders of Heer (that is, Army itself), and Hitler.

Hitler (that is OKW, which was esentially a body made to more effectively exert his influence over the armed forces) always exercised a lot of control over operations on the East, right down to tactical level at some points in time and space, which rarely happened in the West. Army generals had more leeway there. You could say that they had a (slightly)freer hands to fight the war their own way, as opposed to the situation on the East, where Hitler kept on sacking generals which didn't want to follow his (flawed) strategic conceptions (von Brauhitsch in 1941., Halder in 1942. and so on).

Relic people actually did some research, although selection of units and other stuff actually more corresponds to mid war - late war separation of sides than difference between the fronts. Names are apt, I'd say.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

The difference between Werhmacht and OKW, within the game's logic, is very small. I mean, a lot is arbitrary... the MG-42 and MG-34 would have been used on *both fronts*, for one. Secondly, neither front would extensively employ the Raketenwerfer, nor would the Ostwind be significantly employed on either front (this despite the 'ost' in the name). And both fronts would have seen ample use of the Kubelwagen, as well as panzer-grenadiers.

That said, the OKW is supposed to be Ober Kommando West (which is confusing because historically OKW is usually thought of as Ober Kommando der Werhmacht) while Werhmacht is supposed to be the eastern front forces. But, again, the distinction is rather arbitrary since the historical divisions did often enough get shifted from one front to the other, while equipment was often used roughly equally on both fronts (shreks, K-98s, StG-44s, etc.).

If anything, the game's OKW is more like 'Germany 1944-45', while the Werhmacht is 'Germany 1939-45'. And yes, there is over-lap. Because the game's Wehrmacht uses panzershreks despite them not being common until 1943 and later, IIRC. While OKW uses Volksgrenadier divisions, which signify 1944-45 timeframe.

Lastly, to a limited extent, the OKW is a circumvention to get around de-nazification laws and allow countries that do not permit nazi iconography to have what is really a pseudo-Waffen-SS faction. I mean, OKW has the Obersoldaten (which is pretty clearly a euphamism for Waffen-SS soldiers, especially so given their models' uniforms) and has the SturmOffizier, StG-44 upgrades and StG-44 equipped pioneers, infra-red tech (the half-track and StG-44 scopes), and a couple of other things that would have been much more common in the SS than in the Wehrmacht. However, OKW incorporates other stuff as well, as panzerfusiliers or whatever are a referrence to the Grossdeutschland, which, while elite, was part of the Wehrmacht... and jaegers were also more common in the Wehrmacht IIRC.

So, ultimately, like I said before, the distinction between OKW and Wehr is rather arbitrary... OKW basically got units that were different from what Wehr already offered, regardless of historical use... MG-34, Raketenwerfer, etc. all got added to OKW regardless of whether these units were used much in the Waffen-SS/1944-45/Western Front. Further, panzergrenadiers were a prominent part of the Ardennes Offensive, which the OKW in this game would have taken part in... yet, there's no panzer grenadiers available for OKW, which is likely the case only because the Wehr already had them.

So, yeah, a real mish-mash of stuff, often without much historical logic (though usually with some logic of trying to create a new German faction that doesn't reuse 80% of the units Wehr already has).

[Wolli Wombat]

OKW is just Wehrmacht but everyone is traumatized from their previous battle experience. That´s why most OKW units keep shouting all the time.