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The OKW is meant to represent the late-war Germany, hence one of the main reasons why the Sturmpios get STG44s, and I somewhat agree with you, on urban maps they really do shine as the early game terminators where enclosed environments work to their advantge so much they can pretty much take on most enemy infantry squads and send them running.
The problem is how the US and the Soviets opening units RE and CE squads respectively cannot output enough danage unless the enemy is stupid enough to leave their Sturmpios out in the open (Brits with their new mobile assault cover bonus will outduel Sturms unless caught in close range) Both of these squads will outright lose to Sturmpios even in cover as they will be able to take down 1 man from firing at max range but unable to deal with the other 3 as they charge towards them and gun them down.
The Sturmpios are in a thicket right now, on one hand, their high cost, fragility and uselessness when dealing with vehicles makes it mostly risky to dedicate them into a fight as many would see them as the highest priority when blobbed or paired with a Volks squad but on the other, their massive early game dps can/will lay waste to other opening units, rifle infantry and elite infantry if the enemy is not equipped with CQC weapons.
yes the brits can, but what about the rest?
The Brits can deal with this effectively, but the soviets cannot, nor can the americans.
the Americans starts out with a rear echelon versus his sturmpioneer. so if you try and charge ahead to the fuel point to cap it fast, your rears will die. you see his men, you wait for backup by staying out of range. your Riflemen now arrives, but oh? whats this? HIS MEN ARRIVES AS WELL! he will arrive with sturmpioneers or a kubel or even volks. in fact, you now stand with a rear echelon squad and a rifleman squad, where he has a volks squad and a sturmpioneer squad.
the odds are completely stacked against you here. and for the record, if your tommies in heavy cover (its never a guarantee there even is heavy cover) didnt chew off one model before the sturms even got close, then your tommies will die as well.
what about the soviets? its the same story as earlier, he has 2x sturmpioneer or 1 sturm + a volk/kubel, where you have one engineer squad + one conscript squad.
how are you ever going to get the victory or fuel point at the start? you WILL lose it.
then you get unit number 3 but by then you already lost the point and now you have to try and wrestle it back.
my point is, OKW does not NEED to start with a sturmpioneer squad. and again, its not like they are invincible, they are just pretty darn hard to deal with with WHAT you start out with as an allied player.
Then you might, as a soviet player get MGs to deal with it, and sure, it works for the next minute but what happens? either they get flanked because their firing arc is pitiful, or they will receive a napalm grenade to the face. because the Maxims and allied MGs in general, have a pitifully low suppression rate. a Volks squad can literally run in to the MG fire from the longest possible range, and STILL be close enough to lob their grenades which has reasonable throwing range and a very fast throwing animation.
this means any attempt i try with MGs to get back that point i lost, will be shut out by these grenades.
and since OKW doesnt even have a munition penality any more, then throwing these grenades, granted to you by teching up, isnt even a problem.
Either you go conscript heavy and OF COURSE you will arrive with more than 1 additional squad since that is what the cost of Sturms and a Kübel justifies.
Or you went T2 with maxims and got no problem at all.
See every main line infantry wins against Sturms as long as the get to drop models on them fast. AND that is of course an easy job since the Sturms have to come to you. So stick to cover at range and attack from there while they have to close in. If you get suprised and killed as a result, you got outplayed.
i cant see them coming on an urban map where they can come from everywhere
and likewise will my Maxim play be out done by flame grenades due to extremely poor suppression rates on the maxims.
since he wins the initial encounter, at least before we even reach our third unit, he will have not have to focus on running to the point anymore, he can focus all his remaining energy on simply defending.
defending is easier than it is for me to attack.
Also what 4vs4 map is that cramped with tight corners? Only map on which I can slightly understand having issues would be Düsseldorf.
So suddenly there is everything! It's no longer a double Sturmpioneer opening with optional Kübel afterall... NO! Now we got multiple Volks too. Dude are you kidding me?
Also just suppress - DO NOT WAIT FOR PIN - the enemy and move back a little. Yes Maxims are that fast. Problem solved.
call me a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ noob if you want but most people i play with lose against OKW in the early game. it happens like 7/10 times. im not saying they lose the game, but they certainly lose the point which is usually a victory point or a fuel one.
and its not about knowing the maps as i do know them but in the early game how many maxims do you think i have? i cant cover everything in maxim fire, in fact i cant cover ♥♥♥♥, since they have a pitifully low firing arc. and what? Düsseldorf? there is no 4v4 stage found through Match making called Düsseldorf.
this magical thing called FOG of war kind of stops me from knowing where my enemy is. and everything you just mentioned, do i already do. i can try and anticipate, which i do, but even when i do that, thats no guarantee that he DOESNT just have a normal brain, because with that, he should make his sturmpioneer/what ever he got opening work, and WIN the damn point.
I jump in to houses and jump out when those sturmpioneers come close because otherwise i will melt inside of it. and lets not forget that many stages dont necessarily have many houses.
i wait till my second guy is close to my starting engineer before engaging any form of combat, but why the hell would this matter? by the time i got my second unit, he has his second unit as well. and if i am by chance just a LITTLE BIT too close to his units and i try to back off because i dont actually wanna engage fully, he will just run along with me and kill me. if you are not either out of shooting range or at max range completely, they will just follow you, and you will die. you can only retreat if this happens. thus he wins even more time to hunker down with more units and medical HQ truck.
by the time he has his third unit i will have my third unit. if anything, there will only be a small window of difference between mine as his. and this is not even taking my own ally or his own ally in to consideration.
Regardless i didnt start this topic to begin a LEARN TO PLAY session i started it to ask why the F OKW cant start with a volk squad instead. that way it would make a ton more sense and everyone would im guessing, be happy. the Sturmpioneer squad is just too damn good to start out with.
you know i dont play OKW very often nor wehrmacht anymore. i used to but not any more. now Wehrmacht i dont really do well with anymore, but even a brainless monkey could get a kick ass opening with OKW. you literally need to be very bad, in order to lose your first encounters as OKW due to the sheer craziness. even I, who hadnt played them in ages could steam roll my enemy when i took a game yesterday, in the opening stages.
i eventually got my ass kicked around mid/late game but really? anyone can make a great opening with OKW, you would have to be directly bad not to and thats just not how its supposed to work.
Sturmpioneer opening? no thank you. change them to volks and give volks a normal grenade so those who win the earliest points, will be determined by actual skill.
remember i cant play the way you play im a casual player. my skills are limited. and many people, like me, gets smashed to bits in most encounters in the early game against OKW.
I was always curious as to why they wouldn't give them MP40s. That would make more rational sense, to be honest.
Listen, I'm noob from noobs, but even I manage to dealt with sturmpioneers in my last matches as soviet. Conscript + maxim works good. They have only 4 models in squad, if you kill at least 2 of them - you win.
no i dont really want advice because the sturmpioneers have been annoying as F to deal with ever since they came out. sure there has been ups and downs but i dont find them in a state of balance as they are right now, and they cause a major amount of frustration for those i find in my 4v4 games, including myself.
they just need to be someone you buy from the HQ, not someone you start with.
and its not that i havent been able to deal with them at all, its just so much MORE you need to do to deal with these, than it is to deal with so many other things.
the Sturmpioneer opening is just too good. and again, its not like its not doable to get through, because it is, its just way too hard, and its way too easy to do this efficiently.
and what you said about his sturms dying to your maxim + conscript squad is just a testimony to your enemy was caught off guard. where was his other guy? if he had been there, he might have screwed up everything there.
of course you can kill a sturmpioneer with a maxim and a conscript, but what makes you think he wont try to counter your play?
Because late-war Germany could afford to give all their engineer units STGs. Kappa.
Well if you look at the weapons in a late war german squad there were mkre stg44s than Mp40s
Plus stg44 production was way faster than MP40 production ever was. More produced in a shorter space of time. 1.1 million MP40s from 1938-45. 700,000 STG44s from 1943-45.
It would be better if they started with Engies, and move cache building to Engies instead of IS. Plus they could repair damaged UCs, which can be a pain if they arent vet 1 before you tech T2 for Engies. Mortars would be unlocked with T2 as normal.
I dunno royal engineers are still pretty clmbat effective. Wouldn't change much. Would still get stomped by sturmpios and would still beat every other early game unit lol.