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506th? Don't you mean SS 501st Heavy Panzer Battalion?
Nope both Tiger I and Tiger II were in the western area of the St Vith AO.
You do realise that St Vith was a salient of an area right? The St Vith area is actually fairly large and encompasses about a dozen villages:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Vith,+Belgium/@50.2913858,6.0035024,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c0709019d23101:0x5da9daedb7eeea53!8m2!3d50.2788486!4d6.1273655
And the order of battle for the St Vith salient is the entirety of the 5th Panzer Army not just a couple divisions so I dont know what crack you're smoking but I sure af don't want some.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/653rd_Heavy_Panzerj%C3%A4ger_Battalion
Strike 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge_order_of_battle#Fifth_Panzer_Army
Strike 2.
http://abteilung101.ucoz.net/index/ss_s_pz_abt_501/0-24
Strike 3 you're out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/116th_Panzer_Division_(Wehrmacht)
That was exactly the point, looking at Regimental groups that have a detailed overlook of the combat units serving.
Not a single Heavy Tank served in the 116th or was attached to it.
You would have understood that from my post if your intellectual capabilies would be on par with apes
I'm reducing the number of words of my previous post to the minimal amount to ease the pain of your lone brain cell:
The rest is pure flaming that will get you reported.
I will give you a chance to guess 3 times as to which unit consists of these:
Panzer-Regiment 16
Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 60
Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 156
Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 146
Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 116
Heeres-Flak-Artillerie-Abteilung 281
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 228
Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 675
Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 228
Feldersatz-Bataillon 146
Panzer-Nachschubtruppen 66
No, Tigers were not allocated wherever they were needed.
No, I dont mean the battalion that was 15 km away from the battle.
https://i.imgur.com/6W8ML0x.png?2
ST. Vith "area" was an area between Schonberg that fell in the evening of 17th december, the highly contested Winterspelt, and St. Vith itself. The unit that was supposed to have lost the Tiger II is in Andler, 3 km north-east from Schonberg in a traffic jam at this time.
Germans were reducing the schnee eifel pocket east of Schonberg until the 21st, when they finally attacked towards St. Vith, where 5 King-Tigers took part, and none was lost.
The supposed ambush took place just north-east of St. Vith, in Wallerode, on 18th.
Oh, we approach the finale. Good thing that the company of heavy tank hunter unit was entirely reequiped with Jagdtigers, and it was dozens of kilometers away from St. Vith. Closest the 501st came to St.Vith was 15 kilometers, and it wasnt even concerned with that particular battle,
Oh and good thing that this sector belonged to LXVI german corps, consisting of 18th and 62 volks-grenadier divisions, Fuhrer-begleit brigade joined the attack only on 18th. And 506th mostly could not even get to fighting due to traffic jams and bridges that could not hold 70 ton tanks.
And I'll give you a chance to guess 3 times as to which units consists of these:
19th Flak Brigade
207th and 600th Engineer Battalions
653rd Heavy Panzerjäger Battalion
669th Ost (East) Battalion
638th, 1094th, and 1095th Heavy Artillery Batteries
25th/975th Fortress Artillery Battery
1099th, 1119th, and 1121st Heavy Mortar Batteries
3rd Todt Brigade (paramilitary engineers)
------
3rd Panzer Regiment
2nd and 304th Panzergrenadier Regiments
74th Artillery Regiment
2nd Recon Battalion
38th Antitank Battalion
38th Engineer Battalion
273rd Flak Battalion
38th Signals Battalion
-----
33rd Panzer Regiment
10th and 11th Panzergrenadier Regiments
102nd Artillery Regiment
9th Recon Battalion
50th Antitank Battalion
86th Engineer Battalion
287th Flak Battalion
81st Signals Battalion
****301st Heavy Panzer Battalion****
----
130th Panzer Regiment
901st and 902nd Panzergrenadier Regiments
130th Artillery Regiment
130th Recon Battalion
130th Antitank Battalion
130th Engineer Battalion
311th Flak Battalion
559th Antitank Battalion
243rd Assault Gun Brigade
----
102nd Panzer Battalion
100th Panzergrenadier Regiment
120th Artillery Regiment
120th Recon Battalion
120th Engineer Battalion
828th Grenadier Battalion
673rd Antitank Battalion
Oh but I must be the dumb one, there were "no panzer battalions at St Vith at the time"
Read boy, late in the war as in when they were scrapping everything together after the Nazis got their arses handed to them in their failed Ardennes operation. It wasn't uncommon for heavy panzers to be lumped in wherever they were need, especially in the Eastern Front at the time.
Ah your inevitable contextomy again. Guess what? I've read that very same document:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a952910.pdf
And it says this about the M8 incident:
I'll shoot you down if you try and throw that contextomy veil over me.
Source and citation please. I haven't been able to find any document that mentions the exact place this M8 incident occured, only very general descriptions.
Do you know that Schonberg is actually in the St Vith municipality by the way? And your uncited description of the St Vith salient is also wrong, as it extended from Schonberg to Poteau in the east. Not to mention the distance from Schonberg to the Wallerode area is only about 3km, not far at all if a crew gets separated and lost.
WRONG:
http://users.skynet.be/niemacks_place/OOB/Heer/Panzer%20Formations/Panzer%20Abteilungen/Panzerjager%20Abteilungen/Heavy%20Jagdpanzer%20Units/653%20sPzJg%20Battalion%20-%20B.htm
Source and citation again. You're just talking out of your arse at this point.
Source and citation yet again. You're just spouting unfounded drivel.
If we're going to agree to disagree, I think his statement here is an acceptable consensus.
Pure coincidence that NONE of the Heavy Antitank Regiment and SS Heavy Panzer Division he lists are actually mentioned AT ALL in the Order of Battle of Saint - Vith in any source.
Apparently what would have been the 2 largest German Regiments were not mentioned at all.
Not even the Wikipedia links he pulls out of his ass.
The Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 653 was renamed to 614 Schwere Jagdpanzer Kompanie on 15 Dec 1944 and attached to the 5. Panzerarmee, and the 301 s PzAbt was also.
I'm right with linked sources to back me up, so take your soyboy italiano arse out of here and go back to circlejerking on the WoT forum mkay?
Probably you don't even understand what you copy-pasted, so i'll explain it to you
1) It CONFIRMS that you were talking crap and that no Tiger was in the area according to the reports, even less attached to the 116th, aka your poor attempt at convincing people that there were Heavy Panzer regiments/fighting groups in the 116th or involved directly in the Battle is just another symptom of your lobotomy
2) It states that is impossible that such thing happened according to statistics and technical data
3) It says that the whole myth is SOLELY based on the report of a single officer that may or may be not drunk/a liar and that somehow was a single man ALONE witnessing this engagement where the area was actually being partolled by recon units.
4) That it MIGHT have happened under very extraordinary conditions all togheter
4.1) A tiger (alone) somehow detach from the battlegroup and get lost for more than a few dozen of kilometers
4.2) The AP shell hit in a perfect 90 degrees angle (hard to achieve in firing range conditions)
4.3) The armor failed because deficient in welding/quality
4.0 sum up) A tiger, alone, get lost in the forest, enters in a candy house....oh no, sorry, i'm confusing fables right now..
5) Or most likely the crew and the officer thought that a Panzer IV from the 116th was a Tiger
6) It concludes by saying that to him it was a Tiger 1 litterally just cuz REASONS™, kinda similar to the arguments you use.
The whole Story of Nicholas MorOn, conflicting with any single WW2 historian and subjectively looking at data just to advance his narrative.
In any order of Battle, NOTHING, and you would have posted a source saying differently if there was one.
But you'll rather go with ad homs because the Beta males get more and more insecure when their ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ get exposed.
1. Tigers were active in the general AO at the time. And again, the 653rd Heavy Panzerjaeger were involved in the Battle of St Vith. Just read the sources I've posted you utter mong.
2. Not it doesn't.
3. The kill was confirmed. The US field analysts were far more reliable than SS AARs (which Ulater just loves to fap over) and Soviet field reports.
4. Which means that its not impossible, as the Chieftian alludes too.
4.1 Not dozens, more like less than 4km. Which is not that much.
4.2 A 37mm M6 using AP rounds is more than enough to penetrate the poor quality steel rears of many German panzers at short range.
4.3 Probably. That and the quality of German steel had deteriorated drastically by this stage of the war.
5. According to the sources it was most definetely a heavy tank of some sort, whether that be a Tiger I, a Tiger II, or an Elefant. Which also begs the question, if you are indeed correct that it was a Pz IV; according to Ulater there were no panzers at all in the area on 18 Dec 1944. Ulater is bascially saying that the entire incident is a myth and/or propaganda. Do you agree with him on this italiano?
6. Er no, it's clear to everyone with a working brain that is not what he is saying at all.
Its 116 panzer division, the parent unit of 16th tank regiment. I dont know what listing of random units is supposed to mean, but go ahead.
No, they werent scrapping anything, and Tigers were assigned to heavy tank battalions, or special companies created in GD or SS panzer divisions.
You are incapable of shooting anything down, you down.
St. Vith "salient" extended to nowhere past Schoenberg on 17th since past Schoenberg, the single biggest catastrophe of US army in ETO was unfolding.
And yes, the 653 heavy tank battalion company assigned to 15th army far north magically teleported 100 km to the south in two days just to fit your bloated schemes.
And if you were to open your eyes, you can find battle maps very easily.
I'll post it yet again:
http://users.skynet.be/niemacks_place/OOB/Heer/Panzer%20Formations/Panzer%20Abteilungen/Panzerjager%20Abteilungen/Heavy%20Jagdpanzer%20Units/653%20sPzJg%20Battalion%20-%20B.htm
Now please stfu.
Funny thing, that's EXACTLY what Ulater has been saying, the only Tiger 1 near were dozens of kilometers away and were delayed of 1 or two days, LITTERALLY what he said.
No heavy tank regiment was attached to 116th unlike what you said:
2) "One is the thought that even at point blank range, a 37mm could not penetrate a Tiger's armor anywhere. "
3) With all the "confirmed" kills by Murica' best analysts Germans built 280.000 Tiger 1, those "confirmed" kills are very unreliable and you yourself claimed the same thing when Zaloga (from which you apparently want to freely cherrypick from) says that US soldiers and officers thought a Panzer 4 was a Tiger 1 multiple times.
If the kill was "confirmed" why Moran doesn't mention it anywhere as a case for it ? Why make the debate ? Any source telling it was "confirmed"
Such confirmation only comes from one witness. And somehow that matters more than the order of battle saying that no Heavy Panzer were in the area.
#believeallUSofficers
4) It's not impossible, just extremely, to the VERY extreme, unlikely, in a way that only someone MASSIVELY biased would consider it a thing without the proof that some Tiger 1 was EVEN THERE AT ALL.
It becomes impossible when somehow an entire regiment is delayed but a single Tiger conviniently travels alone leaving the remaining unit 2 days behind.
5) He never said such thing, it said that the Panzer IV from the Heavy Panzer and anti tank Divisions with the Panzer IV, Ferdinand and Tiger that were going in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT place, didn't arrive until 1 or 2 days, whixh is what you copy pasted without even reading.
6) Yes, its pretty much a case based solely on "maybe the tank got lost", "if the shot was well placed" and "if the armor quality was bad".
Also
"If Area 51 is restricted to public access" and "if some dudes could swear they have seen UFO" then there's a big ass alienship right there.
That's how stupid Moran claim is.
You DO know how big Army groups are, right ?
REPEAT: If they had any role at all in the Battle of Saint-Vith why aren't those regiments mentioned at all in the Order of Battle for the Battle of Saint-Vith ?
Most laughable post EVER hahahaha
Then, Schonberg was attacked by by 18th VGD GR 294 from the north and GR 293 from the south, supported by StuG-Brigade 244. Notice there still arent any german tanks involved what-so-ever in the eastern section of the battle of St-Vith.
8:45 in the morning of 17th december, the first StuG entered Schonberg. With this crossing in german hands, 2/3 of US 106th infantry division with 5 artillery battalions and elements of 14th Cavalry were stranded in a pocket - 10 000 soldiers, 150 tanks and TDs.
In the morning of 18th, two platoons from GR 293 and 3 Stugs from Stug-Brigade 244 were ordered to attack from Schonberg. Mile and a half west of Schonberg, they encountered 3 tanks from 168th Engineer combat battalion. Engineer survivors radio-ed for air support.
Air support which caused heavy losses to the attacking german forces and caused it to change dirrection to Wallerode, and they were marching parallel to the US lines and around the unit in question.
Now, the North. A small part of 9th US division CCB was eliminated in Ligneuville, 10 miles North-west of St. Vith in the afternoon of 17th, by the forces of I. SS- Pz Korps. While the bulk of the SS continued west, KG Hansen with 4500 men, 750 vehicles (including 20 Panzer IV/70) changed direction south-west, and captured Recht 5 miles North-north west of St. Vith, where they destroyed the HQ company of 14th Cavalry group, in the evening of 17th.
CCR of the US 7th armoured was instructed to withdraw from around Recht in the morning of 18th because of KG Hansen, while Hanses decided to struck-out to Poteau 2 miles south-west of Recht, where he defeated the remnants of 14th Cavalry group and 17th tank battalion of 7th AD CCR, with help from the 3. Fallschirmjäger-Division. Still no German tanks.
KG Hansen run out of fuel in Poteau, which saved american forces in St. Vith from total disaster.
General traffic of 6th SS tank army, movement of their reserves and in particular to St. Vith, Hansen's decision to move through Andler north-east of Schonberg caused humongous traffic jams.
At five in the afternoon on 18th december, Poteau was taken back by CCA, 7th armoured division, from KG Hansen that once again, had no tanks.
Concerned with the 14th CR and 106 ID cauldron east of Schonberg, Model decided to deploy Führer Begleit Brigade from 5th Panzer army reserve to assist the 18th VGD in reducing it.
Que the aforementioned humongous traffic-jams. FBB was not able to arrive at 18th VGD in Walleroder Muhle (a long past german territory) command post until the morning of 18th.
In the meantime, forward elements of 18th VGD worked themselves to the position south-east of St. Vith, while FBB was capable of positioning itself in Hunningen, mile north-west of the town. Finally, german tanks. At 9 in the evening, december 18th.
19th December- 62. Volksgrenadier-Division crossed the Our at Steinebrück, four miles southeast of Sankt Vith.
Later, 18th and 62nd VGD attacked, as there are some claims of tanks(Panthers) in action by american forces, FBB might have been involved too.
This so called incident was supposed to happen between 11:30-12:30 on the 18th.