Model 24 Bundle Grenade vastly OP

[M*]

For 45 munitions these things will wipe an entire 5 man full hp british infantry section, meanwhile the british mills bombs at 25 munitions (and your dignity) are lucky if they kill a single man, on top of that they cost MP + fuel and time to unlock.

Either these model 24s are op or mills bombs are seriously underpowered or both, I've got a feeling that the middle ground is somewhere between the two.

Why isn't this being addressed in the Winter balance preview?

[M*]

Originally posted by Mark:

^wtf is a 5 man pioneer squad, sounds like you made up a unit in that made up story mate.

Bundled grenade op, ye.
You can nerf it when all the allied one shot one squadkill mlg ♥♥♥♥ is nerfed too.
I stopped playing wehrmacht when grenadier squad number 9000 got one shot at full health.

My manually aiming king tiger is making up for it now :angrypilot:

I meant the 5 man tommy squads.

Originally posted by DerWunderWaffle:

While I can understand your point I do think it might have been wiser to compare the bundled grenade to a light mills bomb or the like. IS grenades are better compared to other battleline infantry grenades like the stick grenade or the rifle grenade. That being said, I do understand your frustration. Germans get better results with their grenades then allies do on a normal basis. I assume my allied grenade will only kill one or two of the enemy on a average use (detonating right in the middle of a squad) whereas I'm used to german grenades taking out half to a full squad. I think the main issue you are experiencing is one that plagues the game as a whole: The german factions in the game have a considerable of amount of advantages; some more pronounced and some more subtle( A discussion for another time). If you took two players of equal skill then the german player would generally come out the victor. A big, skilled boxer will defeat a small, skilled boxer (There is a reason for weight classes in boxing).

I'm sure there are some other issues that affect the effectiveness of german grenades but the general point still stands. Personally, I think it would generally balance out if the allies grenades got a buff to their general performance instead of nerfing the german grenades.

If I compared it to the 70 point gammon they'd cite that its a satchel, for in intents and purposes the bundle grenades function like the mills bombs and pineapples, they may cost more, but they're performance more than makes up for it. I agree the germans (notably the wehrmarcht) have many pros, their tanks seem to have a guardian angel that causes AT tank guns to bounce of their rear armour, that being said the germans are a tad more difficult too play.

Honeslty it may be more of an issue with the soviet 6 man squads forcing balance choices that have negative impacts on the british 4/5 man equivilents, all the same, a 300+ manpower unit with a 60 munitions bren gun shouldn't be so easily wiped by a 45 munitions point active effect regardless of wether it was micros or not, the bundles should heavily injure a unit forcing it to retreat or squad wipe.

Originally posted by DangItBobby:

Originally posted by Burkey:

With 170 hours I can say that I feel fairly able to say I've learnt the game, You haven't provided a single counter arguement other than lololol l2p. There are some seriously flawed balancing issues that ought to be addressed, the 45 munition suitcase nukes are one of them. If the commandos gammon bombs were as powerful I'd argue against those too however their longer fuses make them acceptably powerful.

I get the feeling that I've struck a nerve with the people that have been abusing this absurdly OP item for free wins.

Well your wrong. People get good at 400hrs at average. For one you're here arguing about a bundle gernade, that right there shows you don't understand the cost benifit of that gernade. Which is simple to aviod if you are paying attention to the unit about to get hit with that gernade (hint, just press R).

Like everyone has stated L2P

Yet again, for what must be the 5th time retreating when the nade is thrown more often than not results in the squad still being wiped, if I'm very lucky 2 will make it out, though quite common 1 might survive to get shot in the back.

[Maschinengewehr]

1. Heavy gammons and satchels are basically identical.

2. Bundled nades have slightly less cooldown with a bit more range and less damage.

3. Light gammons are comparable to cooked nades, but generally are more powerful (from what I've experienced anyway).

Bundled nades are fine. Stop whining.

[Bubuhotep]

At round bouncing off the rear armor of a german tank? I've never ever seen that.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by >FK< Bubuhotep:

At round bouncing off the rear armor of a german tank? I've never ever seen that.

It was more common before rear armour was nerfed across the board.

[Stridswombat]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

1. Heavy gammons and satchels are basically identical.

2. Bundled nades have slightly less cooldown with a bit more range and less damage.

3. Light gammons are comparable to cooked nades, but generally are more powerful (from what I've experienced anyway).

Bundled nades are fine. Stop whining.

1. Gammons cost 30 munitions more than satchel and have reduced damage vs buildings. Satchels oneshots bunkers but a gammon won't even take half the health off it, I believe. Same goes against any other structures.

2. What is the fuse on a bundled grenade? Seems to me it performs more like a more damaging light gammon/ quicker satchel than anything else. Seems to merch the capability of both into an overall better grenade. At the very least for building clear.

3. Light Gammons have the same fuse as a Mills Bomb but with more damage and AoE.

[mustachewarfare]

the only situation i find bundle grenade bit of overkill is for fallsimjagger. That is bit too much burst damage for infiltration unit.

[dogg]

Originally posted by Jonnydodger:

Originally posted by Burkey:

British commandos?!!? That is a weak counter arguement as that forces you down commander path where as the bundles are standard issue, ontop of that the gammon bombs seem a tad weaker.

The fuses are not long, 2 seconds unlike the 4 of the aforementioned commandos if you hit retreat as soon as you see them thrown you'd be lucky to have 1 maybe 2 guys survive, though a complete wipe is still likely, on top of that movement commands are inadequate as they do not move quickly enough to out range the blast radius. This in itself is problematic because for 45 munitions you force a unit to retreat. (and likely cost the opponent a signifigant amount of manpower to reinforce casualties)

The problem with them is that they are a satchel charges worth of damage on a grenades timer. I never said that millbombs would compare on a 1 for 1 basis with bundles, I compared them as it brings to light a massive gap between the two, for a mere 20 munitions more you get something at least 5 times as powerful. Millsbombs are worthless, and that would still remain true if I didn't have to blow fuel and MP on the ability, these bundles however are gamebreaking.

Learn to play the game. Literally everyone here as told you as much. No one agrees with your view on 'gamebreaking bundles'.

Well you're as wrong as you can be about that. These things are embarassingly OP .

[DerWunderWaffle]

Originally posted by Burkey:

Originally posted by Mark:

^wtf is a 5 man pioneer squad, sounds like you made up a unit in that made up story mate.

Bundled grenade op, ye.
You can nerf it when all the allied one shot one squadkill mlg ♥♥♥♥ is nerfed too.
I stopped playing wehrmacht when grenadier squad number 9000 got one shot at full health.

My manually aiming king tiger is making up for it now :angrypilot:

I meant the 5 man tommy squads.

Originally posted by DerWunderWaffle:

While I can understand your point I do think it might have been wiser to compare the bundled grenade to a light mills bomb or the like. IS grenades are better compared to other battleline infantry grenades like the stick grenade or the rifle grenade. That being said, I do understand your frustration. Germans get better results with their grenades then allies do on a normal basis. I assume my allied grenade will only kill one or two of the enemy on a average use (detonating right in the middle of a squad) whereas I'm used to german grenades taking out half to a full squad. I think the main issue you are experiencing is one that plagues the game as a whole: The german factions in the game have a considerable of amount of advantages; some more pronounced and some more subtle( A discussion for another time). If you took two players of equal skill then the german player would generally come out the victor. A big, skilled boxer will defeat a small, skilled boxer (There is a reason for weight classes in boxing).

I'm sure there are some other issues that affect the effectiveness of german grenades but the general point still stands. Personally, I think it would generally balance out if the allies grenades got a buff to their general performance instead of nerfing the german grenades.

If I compared it to the 70 point gammon they'd cite that its a satchel, for in intents and purposes the bundle grenades function like the mills bombs and pineapples, they may cost more, but they're performance more than makes up for it. I agree the germans (notably the wehrmarcht) have many pros, their tanks seem to have a guardian angel that causes AT tank guns to bounce of their rear armour, that being said the germans are a tad more difficult too play.

Honeslty it may be more of an issue with the soviet 6 man squads forcing balance choices that have negative impacts on the british 4/5 man equivilents, all the same, a 300+ manpower unit with a 60 munitions bren gun shouldn't be so easily wiped by a 45 munitions point active effect regardless of wether it was micros or not, the bundles should heavily injure a unit forcing it to retreat or squad wipe.

Originally posted by DangItBobby:

Well your wrong. People get good at 400hrs at average. For one you're here arguing about a bundle gernade, that right there shows you don't understand the cost benifit of that gernade. Which is simple to aviod if you are paying attention to the unit about to get hit with that gernade (hint, just press R).

Like everyone has stated L2P

Yet again, for what must be the 5th time retreating when the nade is thrown more often than not results in the squad still being wiped, if I'm very lucky 2 will make it out, though quite common 1 might survive to get shot in the back.

A fair point about the comparison. It is basically an advanced basic infantry grenade but, unfortunately, the allies don't really have any equivalent outside of the light gammon. I'm not for the blurring of lines between factions but my hope would be that the allies would get some grenades that would be just as powerful as the german's. My personal preference would be that allied infantry get their grenade as a default instead of having to sidegrade and that they would perform as well as german standard infantry grenades. This would mean that the bundle grenade would be a powerful tool for a faction that NEEDS to use it well against an enemy that can give it back them in spades. Currently, it seems excessive to give such a tool to a faction that already can mop the floor with the allies. At some point I'm hoping that Relic will decide that the allied factions can actually have an equal amount of advantage and buff them heavily.

I find the statement about playing the germans to be interesting. Personally, I find them to be extremely easy to play (and win) as. It could just be my personal style of play coincides with their's but I would still argue that the german factions can do more for less effort.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by The Wombat of Combat:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

1. Heavy gammons and satchels are basically identical.

2. Bundled nades have slightly less cooldown with a bit more range and less damage.

3. Light gammons are comparable to cooked nades, but generally are more powerful (from what I've experienced anyway).

Bundled nades are fine. Stop whining.

1. Gammons cost 30 munitions more than satchel and have reduced damage vs buildings. Satchels oneshots bunkers but a gammon won't even take half the health off it, I believe. Same goes against any other structures.

2. What is the fuse on a bundled grenade? Seems to me it performs more like a more damaging light gammon/ quicker satchel than anything else. Seems to merch the capability of both into an overall better grenade. At the very least for building clear.

3. Light Gammons have the same fuse as a Mills Bomb but with more damage and AoE.

That sounds like a garrison/building modifier issue. I've had gammons wipe entire squads in buildings without bringing them down before. That was a while ago, not sure if its changed

Probably about 1.5-2 seconds or so?

Idk about that. Its pretty quick. I reckon its about the same as the Para cooked nade, if not ever so slightly longer. They are good though.

[Stridswombat]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by The Wombat of Combat:

1. Gammons cost 30 munitions more than satchel and have reduced damage vs buildings. Satchels oneshots bunkers but a gammon won't even take half the health off it, I believe. Same goes against any other structures.

2. What is the fuse on a bundled grenade? Seems to me it performs more like a more damaging light gammon/ quicker satchel than anything else. Seems to merch the capability of both into an overall better grenade. At the very least for building clear.

3. Light Gammons have the same fuse as a Mills Bomb but with more damage and AoE.

That sounds like a garrison/building modifier issue. I've had gammons wipe entire squads in buildings without bringing them down before. That was a while ago, not sure if its changed

Probably about 1.5-2 seconds or so?

Idk about that. Its pretty quick. I reckon its about the same as the Para cooked nade, if not ever so slightly longer. They are good though.

Satchel have a bonus multiplier against bunkers and the like the help destroy them. Gammon has the opposite, it has a significant negative multiplier against structures which causes it to only do a fraction of its damage against them. Hence, a Gammon is not able to destroy a bunker, unlike a satchel. For twice the price...

If bundles really do detonate that quickly, I reckon they warrant a range/fuse nerf. They do more damage than light gammons and have more damage and range than satchels for the same price. They bring down building like no tomorrow and without the reaction time given satchels, nor the short range.

Throw them into any building and they're basically a fast satchel charge. Imagine the complaining we'd be having if satchels detonated that quickly.

[Jonnydodger]

Gammons exist in a wierd area, being expensive and doing as well as a satchel charge. They have the same multipliers for everything, according to CoH2 stats.
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=penal_troop_satchel_charge_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=tommy_gammon_bomb_heavy
The Gammons just do less damage. I don't see what causes them to do less damage against buildings, apart from them being weaker.
Not like they'll be buffed, I've been told by Mr. Smith that Gammons won't be changed because they don't want to make Hammer any more of a 'no-brainer'.

[2nd SS Das Reich Divison]

Originally posted by Burkey:

For 45 munitions these things will wipe an entire 5 man full hp british infantry section, meanwhile the british mills bombs at 25 munitions (and your dignity) are lucky if they kill a single man, on top of that they cost MP + fuel and time to unlock.

Either these model 24s are op or mills bombs are seriously underpowered or both, I've got a feeling that the middle ground is somewhere between the two.

Why isn't this being addressed in the Winter balance preview?

If you throw 3-4 stun in same time, yes, it wipes squad... but its not op,. just aviod them if you know to micro your units

[2nd SS Das Reich Divison]

Originally posted by Burkey:

For 45 munitions these things will wipe an entire 5 man full hp british infantry section, meanwhile the british mills bombs at 25 munitions (and your dignity) are lucky if they kill a single man, on top of that they cost MP + fuel and time to unlock.

Either these model 24s are op or mills bombs are seriously underpowered or both, I've got a feeling that the middle ground is somewhere between the two.

Why isn't this being addressed in the Winter balance preview?

184h, just l2p dude

[Darkkin]

As a player with 1500 hours I think it's fine, I don't think the buff a while back was realy needed but it didn't make it OP.

It isn't being addressed because the mills bomb is a mainline infantry nade and the bundle is either locked behind a commander or battle phase 1 and the T2 structure on expensive specialised units, also it is totally impossible for a bundle to wipe a full health squad unless you get flanked...

out of cover (even more so after WBP) the radius is too small and if they are clumped BEHIND cover they take reduced grenade damage, if they are in frount of cover or the nade is thrown from behind the units in cover full damage will occur and usually a wipe, but that is just a L2P isdue, bundles are also pretty easy to dodge, I'm more scared of partyzan suprise shocktroop nade, glad that's getting a nerf

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Jonnydodger:

Gammons exist in a wierd area, being expensive and doing as well as a satchel charge. They have the same multipliers for everything, according to CoH2 stats.
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=penal_troop_satchel_charge_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=tommy_gammon_bomb_heavy
The Gammons just do less damage. I don't see what causes them to do less damage against buildings, apart from them being weaker.
Not like they'll be buffed, I've been told by Mr. Smith that Gammons won't be changed because they don't want to make Hammer any more of a 'no-brainer'.

So really its just too expensive for what it is.

Yeah it wont be getting changed anytime soon. Mr Smith's "scope" didnt reach nerfing Brits to the ground....yet.