What does Ostheer have over OKW?

[Nequis]

So i'm wondering why would one vouch for Ostheer over OKW as of now they seem the most lackluster (at least to me) in 3v3+ modes. Everything OH has OKW can do better in a different way and gets shut down from UKF/USF,for example some things:



[Mortar] --USF now has them and UKF is gg for mortars since they shut them down hard along with MGs,the amount of indirect fire in the game vs support weapons renders them least desirable vs actual effective mobile combat infantry. OKW can just use a single LeiG to counter pits effectively and can bumrush with flame nades.

[MG] --It gets softcountered by Vickers,USF smoke+mortar is overkill. OKW can just get a fillgap MG on their own and focus on effective infantry usage. I had Vet 3 Pgrens getting squashed by a Rifle coming out of smoke,Sturmpios have more survivability somehow.

[Grens] --They are just support infantry,only effective when used as Osts and slightly better than them in attacking,they don't survive up to late game even with Vet3 when indirect starts raining more than ever.

[Slowest faction] --Teching takes literal ages and resources and has impeding unit distribution. Most players just sit in T2 until victory or death. P4s and Stugs are way more cost-efficient tool whereas the Panther is worse than OKW and the Werfer is a hybrid beetwen a Stuka and a Katiusha doing neither jobs good. I caught 3 rifle squads chilling idle behind a bush,barraged at a ridicolous distance (behind the same bush),didn't wipe any nor inflicted any kind of heavy damage.


OH can't really defend anything,is as passive as passive gets,OKW with defense doctrine does a waaaaaay better job as you get plenty of toys that work on their own and are not strictly dependent on eachother,making a way more active defense playstyle possible.

And a lot other things that i'm not putting here else it becomes a huge wall,maybe it's just me but i prefer a defensive playstyle while i feel that OKW has it over what is supposed to be the defense faction.

[ShodaN]

Your question and description don't fit together. You want to compare OKW and Wehrmacht, but continue to look at Wehrmacht vs other factions.

OKW surely lacks in the weapon team department. MG42 and Mortar are clearly better than MG34 and ISG in power, availabilty and usefulness. How that differs in matchups is irrelevant for a comparison, since OKWs alternatives get shut down in the same way, with more downsides. What's an MG34 going to do against USF mortars and the like that makes it better? ISG also don't counter mortars better. Their range isn't sufficient until vet either.

Their mainline infantry is basically a Riflemen copy paste with less near dps and marginally more long range dps. Grens on the other hand are way better at long range and their LMG adds to that significantly, while the STGs are more short to mid range. Survivability is based on player skill and decison making (squad behavior will be improved).

As for tech they are way faster and way more versatile than OKW. No lock out effects through teching and a wider variety of units on offer. Wehrmacht T3 harbours about the most efficient Axis units the game has to offer and open up a lot of options and choice, while OKWs Panzers are locked behind top tier. Progression is also more natural, since you gradually improve in cost and power, with the option to skip steps. OKW on the other hand has to decide their path early and stick to decision due to cost.

[Foxtrot39]

On a personal opinion OKW only has good rifleman and vet ranks, OH seems to stomp it in every possible way even on the ressource departement

By the time OKW start rolling Pz IV enemies rolled out TD and swarm of AT guns/inf

[Felinewolfie]

Okw screams heil
! Fur der fafherland!
I
Am elite
! :)

[Nequis]

My perception of it is that most infantry engagements happen in close to mid range where OH has a clear disadvantage,and yes,of course OH has better support weapons than OKW but they are solely relying on them,and as game progresses they get erased from the map from the rain of indirect fire starting from early game.

There are even Bofors counterbarraging suppressing mortars on the other side of the map which in turn bug out and when you try to move them they deploy/undeploy/deploy etc.

Originally posted by DarTH ShodaN:

What's an MG34 going to do against USF mortars and the like that makes it better? ISG also don't counter mortars better. Their range isn't sufficient until vet either.

Their mainline infantry is basically a Riflemen copy paste with less near dps and marginally more long range dps. Grens on the other hand are way better at long range and their LMG adds to that significantly, while the STGs are more short to mid range. Survivability is based on player skill and decison making (squad behavior will be improved).

What i mean is that as the MG34 won't do anything better,the mainline infantry can keep up without it if it gets dislodged while OH looses a great deal of staying power and has severely limited pushing capabilities.

Originally posted by DarTH ShodaN:

Progression is also more natural, since you gradually improve in cost and power, with the option to skip steps. OKW on the other hand has to decide their path early and stick to decision due to cost.

What can you skip? T1 houses AT so you can't skip that,T2 is where most players stop at cause of T3 initial investment and costly units in there. The only one you can pull is skipping T2 for T3 which doesn't work reliably or cheesing with Ost doctrine into T2.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Nequis:

My perception of it is that most infantry engagements happen in close to mid range where OH has a clear disadvantage,and yes,of course OH has better support weapons than OKW but they are solely relying on them,and as game progresses they get erased from the map from the rain of indirect fire starting from early game.

There are even Bofors counterbarraging suppressing mortars on the other side of the map which in turn bug out and when you try to move them they deploy/undeploy/deploy etc.

If that is your perception, then it's because of sloppy positioning as Wehrmacht. Allies have the job to make engagements happen at close to mid range, Wehrmacht has the job to deny that. That's really all there is to it. If you or teammates you watch are letting the Allies do as they please the advantage is lost of course.

Action = reaction. If you rely too much on MGs and mortars, then of course you will get rained upon by mortars. That's why you anticipate such reactions and shape your army in a way that exploits this. The second you shift from early to midgame all the aggressive tools become available from T2 - lights, HT, PGrens. Perfect for flanking and punishing overuse of indirect fire.

Taking out a Bofors (and other emplacements) is done with AT guns, Stugs or mortar HTs btw, not mortars. So maybe you expect them to do something they aren't going to do.

Originally posted by Nequis:

What i mean is that as the MG34 won't do anything better,the mainline infantry can keep up without it if it gets dislodged while OH looses a great deal of staying power and has severely limited pushing capabilities.

OH is specialized on that regard. OKW has more alround mainline infantry somewhat like USF in their vanilla version. PGrens are the offensive infantry force. Too many times people ignore that and just upgrade them for AT. Big mistake. Ostheer can do both defensive and offensive, but it takes a player that knows how to approach either of the concepts. Otherwise PGrens just get shredded, when used wrong.

Originally posted by Nequis:

What can you skip? T1 houses AT so you can't skip that,T2 is where most players stop at cause of T3 initial investment and costly units in there. The only one you can pull is skipping T2 for T3 which doesn't work reliably or cheesing with Ost doctrine into T2.

Of course you can skip T1 or T3 based on how you play and what commanders you use. It's a matter of being able to react to the flow of the game. OKW doesn't have that luxury. They decide about T1 or 2 mostly based on matchup and gameplan, but not on what has happend so far, since the decision comes so early. You wont build a truck and then get nothing from it, just to build the other one. You are locked in. As far as vehicles go you'll have to get T3 at all times, especially if you went with T1 first. No decision about staying or upgrading like OH has.

[Nequis]

Mmmmm thanks a lot for the time in putting up such a detailed reply,found some things i oversaw during my matches/observations of others.

Still i'm not sure if i'm letting my Soviet/OKW affect negatively the way i play Ostheer,since in short i started during beta maining Ostheer,then when Western Front came out i tried OKW for some but didn't like them and switched to maining Soviets,after OKW rework now maining them.

So i'm a bit baffled that i played OH for so long but nowadays that i picked them back up i feel like i know what i should do but missing out on long term development.

What are the commanders most resemblant to the way Shock Army or Defense Doc plays out?


P.S. I know you don't take out a Bofors with mortars,but actually a guy built one in Lorch on the other side of the castle and shot out of nowhere my mortars into red suppression bugging them out that they kept undeploying/deploying on their own.

[ShodaN]

You are definitly right about how different they play from the rest. Just shows how different the playstyles were in the original matchup of Soviets vs Wehrmacht. OKW really is the much more aggressive Axis faction. And that resonates well with the playstyle of Soviet or USF players.

Whenever I played to much of either of those sides, I tend to screw up with Wehrmacht a lot as well.

It's way more about discipline in positioning and picking engagements imo. They got a lot of tools for almost every situation, but they are all pretty specialized. Meaning their units do one thing extremely well, but fall flat in everything else. Like Grens and PGrens with their extremely different focus of long and short range. Both wont win most fights at mid range against Allied infantry, so it's about managing both extremes.

As far as commanders go, I see them more as the icing on the cake with Wehrmacht, than something at the core like with Soviets. Sure they can mix up the rules a bit, like Mechanized Assault giving you short range troops early, Osttruppen turing the cost efficiency on its head or G43s increasing mid to short range dps instead of long range. I tend to avoid that however and go with less extreme changes and focus on the abilities available.

The various great airstrikes of course, but also the infantry buffs like Tactical Movement (perfect with PGrens) or Relief Infantry (basically means endless cannon fodder once you gained your first Osttruppen squad and is extremely cheap - 90 munitions of 120sec). Especially against Brits I keep something with a mortar HT and artillery around. Always helpful.

I don't think there's something that completely resembles the two commanders you mentioned though. Some of the stuff is already in the basic roster but too different to feel the same really.

[Maschinengewehr]

Ost is very much a reactionary faction. Which can be an advantage in itself. OKW is very much a proactive faction who relies on aggression and determining play.

Without going on a tl;dr massacre, regarding the "Ost is UP" argument. I think they require a decent understanding of how each Allies faction plays (and OKW for that matter). You know, when to be aggressive, the general timing of units, how to determine the opponent's build etc.

They're definitely the hardest to play, not because they have "UP" things (they dont) but because of their reactionary style and the experience and knowledge that requires.

(P.S I saw an interesting play with Ost vs USF the other day. USF obviously went in for a mortar + rifle opening into Cpt for a Stuart. So the Ost player went 3 grens + sniper. No med bunker or MG42s. He then went for a quick HT and put Pgrens w/schrek inside ane used it to reinforce his units. The Stuart came along and was baited by the HT as the pgren schreks popped out ane nailed it. Then he upgraded it flamers and it was pretty much gg for USF as they had no real counter for it. T3 was the nail in the coffin at that stage.)

[DangI7Bobby]

Personally, i feel a lot more comftrable playing as OST than OKW.
My main thing is, i love weapon crews. I use all of them in an offensive manner. I move up my mgs with my infantry, right behind that is my moartars. I pin infantry, let my grens take shots at them, and my moarters bomb them. If an armor unit tries to attack i have a pak in the back ready to attack with my grens waiting to cripple there engine.

Ost has a straight forward easy build with counters to everying for all allie armys it will face but it takes a lot of micro to make them a monster of an army. I can confidently say i can make ost that monster of any army.

The grens are great long range units give them g34s and they can sturm into a place. Pgrens are even better and if your opponent tries to go all out armor you can just upgrade your pgrens with schreks.

The mgs, you dont take down vickers with your mgs. You use your moartrs. The ost mg has the fastest supression rate but is the slowest to set up. Two mgs will give the USF a lot of trouble.

Two moarters will give the ukf a lot of trouble. They will make short work of the ukf if they plan to go emplacment. Their starting bren carrier wont harass ost as much as compaired to okw beceause grens panzerfaust has greater range and is obtained early game.

And a well built army with counters will be a challege for the soviets to take on. Sovits go mg route, moaters are there to counter. They go penal route, grens and mgs are there to counter.

With ost you can spam armor units, okw can't do that.

With ost, you can reman a decrewed weapon team. With ost, you'll be maining volks and sturm pios, you can't reman thoes if lost. Basically, your army is less forgiving with loses on weapon teams.

In short, when it comes to ost, i rather play them than oke and i rather have an ost teammate than okw always.

[Felinewolfie]

Wehrmacht = Ostheer :)
OKW... bragging rights.

I also feel more comfortable with Wehrmacht (Ostheer)

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by DangItBobby:

Ost has a straight forward easy build with counters to everying for all allie armys it will face but it takes a lot of micro to make them a monster of an army. I can confidently say i can make ost that monster of any army.

Imo it takes way less micro, since positioning is what it's all about with most of their units. Put a unit in an optimal position for long range combat, add a spotter and that's the most you can get out of it. Sure you reposition a lot, but that's no different from other factions. Other factions have to use most of their stuff more offensively which means more effort to get into range unharmed.

As Ostheer you can concentrate on those few units that require this kind of attention like PGrens and their light vehicles. The rest works best when you are not fiddeling around with it too much and let them shoot stationary.

[LoopDloop]

One thing though: mortar spam usually beats pits as long as you're not complacent or stupid with them, especially if you have a halftrack or a teammate's OKW truck to reinforce from. OKW tanks are kinda better which is odd. The thing is that OKW is just way easier to use than Ost, as they mostly just rely on volks with maybe raks and isgs or a luchs, while Ost has to use combined arms and smart team weapon placement. Ost teching is indeed better than a lot of other factions' though. I would say Soviets are tied (since they don't have to purchase those battlephase upgrades, but need to choose between t1 and t2), USF and OKW is a lot since you need to choose t1 or t2, but worth mentioning you get free ♥♥♥♥ with teching for both factions (officers and reinforce point), and brit tech is the best of all for whatever reason.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by LoopDloop:

One thing though: mortar spam usually beats pits as long as you're not complacent or stupid with them, especially if you have a halftrack or a teammate's OKW truck to reinforce from. OKW tanks are kinda better which is odd. The thing is that OKW is just way easier to use than Ost, as they mostly just rely on volks with maybe raks and isgs or a luchs, while Ost has to use combined arms and smart team weapon placement. Ost teching is indeed better than a lot of other factions' though. I would say Soviets are tied (since they don't have to purchase those battlephase upgrades, but need to choose between t1 and t2), USF and OKW is a lot since you need to choose t1 or t2, but worth mentioning you get free ♥♥♥♥ with teching for both factions (officers and reinforce point), and brit tech is the best of all for whatever reason.

What's only Volks and a few raks going to do though? This may be easier to use, but has way less potential and is way easier countered.

Ost and Soviets are the only two factions to have their vehicle tiers split, which is a huge benefit in flexibility. Everyone else works roughly along the lines of: basic infantry - light vehicles - tanks/tds with support weapons more or less scattered across the tech tree around initial and light vehicle phase.

As Soviets you get the SU-76 earlier as a light tank destroyer and Ostheer has a full range of AI, allround and AT vehicle in T3 and additional higher tier options in T4 to top it off. That's a unique setup in this game.

[✳Sindri Myr✳]

To throw my 2 cents in. Everything ShodaN said is 100% right. The very question of the thread is kind of wrong - the 2 factions are simply completely different, one could easily find units which are better in Ostheer roster then OKW. But this isnt realy the question is it? The game is all about synergy of units, especialy when you play OSt. Ost can be harder to play, but imo their late panzer game is tonn times more FUN then okw, so thats my legit answer to the question ;)