Does MH need localization?

[Chojoukif]

Obviously translation is needed, for people who are not fluent in Japanese to enjoy the game, but my question is more so about localization. I am aware that perfect translation is often not possible, but let's not muddy the point, a big part of localization is altering the content and meaning of the source text to fit some perceived audience better, in other words, its inherently a middleman between you the fan and the creators.

I play with the game on Japanese vocals, but usually I play with the text on English, simply because I am not proficient enough in Japanese to read a lot of the pop-ups in a split second, and its just generally more comfortable for me, but listening to the vocals, I cannot help but notice how often the dialogue does not match the subtitles. Sometimes its a small difference, other times is a completely different sentence. As an example of these differences I rewatched the opening cutscene to record some alterations. Keep in mind there isn't much dialogue in this cutscene but the point was to give a baseline, not an exhaustive list of differences (I also tried to avoid recording small changes or nitpicks, like I said, I do understand it can't be exactly 1 to 1 between English and Japanese). The first line in each snippet is the original Japanese in Romaji, the second is a more direct translation by me, the last is what the subtitles says.

Nata, koko ni toottara soto ni derareru
Nata, once you go through here you can get outside
Nata, you can escape through here

Tasheen Oji-san!
Uncle Tasheen!
Don't leave me

Ikiyo
Live
Be strong

Oji-san!!
Uncle!!
Tasheen!!

Hito ga... Taorete imasu
A person... has fallen down
Down there... someone is in trouble

So these differences might not seem that substantial at a glance, but even in these lines there are differences, like for example, the subs don't tell us the relationship of Tasheen and Nata, and in the first line I think there is an emphasis on "getting out" as opposed to "escaping" which as we find out later in the story is relevant for the keepers. I also want to point out this should be taken as more of a minimum for what the changes look like, some lines are completely going off the beaten path inserting new vocabulary and implications into the dialogue.

The question for me is not so much whether "its a big deal" or "if it makes the game worse or better", but more so, why are we doing this at all? I sincerely doubt anyone is asking for these changes.

Another thing I don't really understand is why there is no parity between the Japanese and English monster names. Some of the changes are more understandable that others, for example Rathalos and Rathian are Rioreusu and Rioreiya, the Japanese names definitely sound more foreign whereas the English names do conjure the image of a dragon, so even though I prefer the Japanese names I see the counterargument. I also understand changing the letters slightly to make the name flow better, for example Nargacuga has an extra r in Japanese, like this "Nargacurga" Maybe it sounds a bit more clunky like this, but the translated version is close enough for me. Or Arshveld -> Arkveld. But many of the changes also make no sense to me like "Labara Barina" -> "Lala Barina" or "Babaconga" -> "Congalala". Ultimately these are just names of fictional monsters and they can be whatever the developers feel like. Probably the dumbest change for me is "Tamamitsune" -> "Mizutsune" ... ok, so you replaced the Japanese name with another Japanese name? Why is Tobi-Kadachi fine but Tamamitsune is not? Who knows. It's arbitrary for the middleman to decide. For me the bottom line is, there is no reason to be making these changes, things can just be called what they are called in Japanese, just the same way anime subs don't rename Gojou Satoru to Gollybob Sasquatch.

Anyway, my feeling is that 99% of people don't care... until it becomes a problem and then they will care, but I say why let it get to that point? There are bigger fish to fry when it comes to MH I get it, but that is no reason to defend these practices. Try to avoid anchoring bias on this, ask yourself, if the game was not localized but only translated, would you want someone to change the names to make them sound "cooler" for you based on their own standards and massage the dialogue as they see fit? I wouldn't.

[Mrrshan68]

Japanese 100% needs localisation.
Because of its very limtied phonics (compared to english anyway) alot of words/sounds are reused.
This means context and inference are super important in japanese, the actual words used often have wildly different meanings depending on context.

Now if you study abit of japanese/watch alot of japanese media with subs you will pick up some of this inference so wont need it localised.
Alot of people however would have no idea wtf is going on.

The whole ojiisan thing is a perfect example, it can mean literal uncle or it can simply be a child referring to an adult man.
If they translate it to uncle then tashneen becomes natas uncle, but maybe he isnt maybe he is just some dude who adopted an orphan?

Japense is full of ♥♥♥♥ like this.
If you know you know but not everyone does.

Oh and just a generic direct translation always sound so broken and terrible, each language has a flow and nuance to the word choice etc.
So if you just translate directly it doesnt sound like natural speech it sounds just odd.

[Chojoukif]

Originally posted by Mrrshan68:

Japanese 100% needs localisation.
Because of its very limtied phonics (compared to english anyway) alot of words/sounds are reused.
This means context and inference are super important in japanese, the actual words used often have wildly different meanings depending on context.

Now if you study abit of japanese/watch alot of japanese media with subs you will pick up some of this inference so wont need it localised.
Alot of people however would have no idea wtf is going on.

The whole ojiisan thing is a perfect example, it can mean literal uncle or it can simply be a child referring to an adult man.
If they translate it to uncle then tashneen becomes natas uncle, but maybe he isnt maybe he is just some dude who adopted an orphan?

Japense is full of ♥♥♥♥ like this.
If you know you know but not everyone does.

What you are referring to is a matter of translation. If the translation is misleading or vague, then the translation needs to be improved. I'm not opposed to any and all additions that make the dialogue flow better. For example, in DQ8 many characters call the player "Guv" as a standin for his name, I am confident this is not what he is called in Japanese, probably something like okashira since Yangus is the one who primarily calls him that and he used to be a bandit. But anyway, its close enough and the vibe is similar, so I accept it. It's a good translation. Localization is more about the mindset of changing things to make them palatable, its fundamentally not the same as translation.

[Mrrshan68]

And yet if thats the case the 3 examples you gave are of translation not localisation?
The fundamental meaning of the sentences doesnt change.

As for the name changes, usually its just about cutting down the number of syllables to make it easier to say or just making them sound better to the english speaking ear.

What you describe is only a problem when they start whole cloth changing things they find offensive etc.
Like there was a controversy online about translators for anime often wholly changing jokes because they found them offensive.
i agree thats wrong and shouldnt be happening, but "middle men" ie publishers always decide what goes in media.
You basically never get what the artist 100% wanted to say because the artist isnt an idiot and wants to eat/make rent/get published.
So even if they want to do a thing, they will probably self censor cause they realise it wont be accepted.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Chojoukif:

Does MH need localization?
Obviously translation is needed, for people who are not fluent in Japanese to enjoy the game, but my question is more so about localization. I am aware that perfect translation is often not possible, but let's not muddy the point, a big part of localization is altering the content and meaning of the source text to fit some perceived audience better, in other words, its inherently a middleman between you the fan and the creators.

I play with the game on Japanese vocals, but usually I play with the text on English, simply because I am not proficient enough in Japanese to read a lot of the pop-ups in a split second, and its just generally more comfortable for me, but listening to the vocals, I cannot help but notice how often the dialogue does not match the subtitles. Sometimes its a small difference, other times is a completely different sentence. As an example of these differences I rewatched the opening cutscene to record some alterations. Keep in mind there isn't much dialogue in this cutscene but the point was to give a baseline, not an exhaustive list of differences (I also tried to avoid recording small changes or nitpicks, like I said, I do understand it can't be exactly 1 to 1 between English and Japanese). The first line in each snippet is the original Japanese in Romaji, the second is a more direct translation by me, the last is what the subtitles says.

Nata, koko ni toottara soto ni derareru
Nata, once you go through here you can get outside
Nata, you can escape through here

Tasheen Oji-san!
Uncle Tasheen!
Don't leave me

Ikiyo
Live
Be strong

Oji-san!!
Uncle!!
Tasheen!!

Hito ga... Taorete imasu
A person... has fallen down
Down there... someone is in trouble

So these differences might not seem that substantial at a glance, but even in these lines there are differences, like for example, the subs don't tell us the relationship of Tasheen and Nata, and in the first line I think there is an emphasis on "getting out" as opposed to "escaping" which as we find out later in the story is relevant for the keepers. I also want to point out this should be taken as more of a minimum for what the changes look like, some lines are completely going off the beaten path inserting new vocabulary and implications into the dialogue.

The question for me is not so much whether "its a big deal" or "if it makes the game worse or better", but more so, why are we doing this at all? I sincerely doubt anyone is asking for these changes.

Another thing I don't really understand is why there is no parity between the Japanese and English monster names. Some of the changes are more understandable that others, for example Rathalos and Rathian are Rioreusu and Rioreiya, the Japanese names definitely sound more foreign whereas the English names do conjure the image of a dragon, so even though I prefer the Japanese names I see the counterargument. I also understand changing the letters slightly to make the name flow better, for example Nargacuga has an extra r in Japanese, like this "Nargacurga" Maybe it sounds a bit more clunky like this, but the translated version is close enough for me. Or Arshveld -> Arkveld. But many of the changes also make no sense to me like "Labara Barina" -> "Lala Barina" or "Babaconga" -> "Congalala". Ultimately these are just names of fictional monsters and they can be whatever the developers feel like. Probably the dumbest change for me is "Tamamitsune" -> "Mizutsune" ... ok, so you replaced the Japanese name with another Japanese name? Why is Tobi-Kadachi fine but Tamamitsune is not? Who knows. It's arbitrary for the middleman to decide. For me the bottom line is, there is no reason to be making these changes, things can just be called what they are called in Japanese, just the same way anime subs don't rename Gojou Satoru to Gollybob Sasquatch.

Anyway, my feeling is that 99% of people don't care... until it becomes a problem and then they will care, but I say why let it get to that point? There are bigger fish to fry when it comes to MH I get it, but that is no reason to defend these practices. Try to avoid anchoring bias on this, ask yourself, if the game was not localized but only translated, would you want someone to change the names to make them sound "cooler" for you based on their own standards and massage the dialogue as they see fit? I wouldn't.

Long story short: no.

Monster Hunter is great as it is, especially with the Japanese culture within its design.

If people do not get it, they do not get it. Same goes for anime. If you make it too "American", that is no longer anime - that would be just a cartoon.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Chojoukif:

Probably the dumbest change for me is "Tamamitsune" -> "Mizutsune" ... ok, so you replaced the Japanese name with another Japanese name? Why is Tobi-Kadachi fine but Tamamitsune is not?

Maybe it is just me, but given Mizutsune is a long, pink monster that vomits up white stuff when you aggravate it, leaving the word for "balls" in its name might be pushing things a bit too far. I know it probably refers to the bubbles... but still... I call it the "Bukkake Weasel" for good reason. Not in front of my daughter though since it is her favourite monster, but she is an adult now so she probably wouldn't care any more.
As I recall "Amatsu" is another one that got massively shortened in translation... and is funnily enough another floppy water-element monster.

THAT ASIDE... I have noticed what you said. The localisation doesn't match up with literal translation and a lot of it is completely needless... but most of what the characters say is pointless dross anyway. This is a game about hunting monsters. The story is as much inconsequential noise. It isn't like we're solving mass social problems nor solving a whodunnit. Everything they say just leads invariably back to me shooting a monster (usually until it is dead, which I don't like).

[Khergit Horse Archer]

id imagine japanese into english translation is like chinese into english

like "dragon heavenly piercing immortal sword" is like 4 characters in chinese its stupid in english

[This PC]

not this conversation again
they chose localization, please respect their artistic choices, this is not your game
I don't even have to give my opinion on it ><

[Chojoukif]

Originally posted by Mrrshan68:

And yet if thats the case the 3 examples you gave are of translation not localisation?
The fundamental meaning of the sentences doesnt change.

As for the name changes, usually its just about cutting down the number of syllables to make it easier to say or just making them sound better to the english speaking ear.

What you describe is only a problem when they start whole cloth changing things they find offensive etc.
Like there was a controversy online about translators for anime often wholly changing jokes because they found them offensive.
i agree thats wrong and shouldnt be happening, but "middle men" ie publishers always decide what goes in media.
You basically never get what the artist 100% wanted to say because the artist isnt an idiot and wants to eat/make rent/get published.
So even if they want to do a thing, they will probably self censor cause they realise it wont be accepted.

What do you mean the fundamental meaning of the sentence doesn't change? Changing Tasheen Oji-san to Don't leave me is quite different, apart from the most broad interpretation that both sentences are expressing distress. All of the 5 sentences are different in terms of meaning or vibe, some more than others.

I don't know if I buy the syllable explanation for the names I mean maybe on average they get 1 syllable shorter but the changes go further than that, if they did only stick to making sure the name flows better in English speech without altering it too much I would be more accepting of it.

Yes I get that even in the original Japanese, there are creative limits, but I don't exactly understand if you meant that as an argument for why localization is ok, kinda like "you're not getting the true unfiltered vision anyway so why even try to be accurate to the source". I don't agree with that, the artists are still trying to do the best they can within the limitations there are provided.

And yes, I know, many localizations are much much worse, altering the dialogue based on personal biases or to bend the knee to some outside force/criticism. All things considered we still have it good in MH, but I definitely don't want to see things get worse, that's why I think its important to talk about it now that its still not a huge problem.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Chojoukif:

What do you mean the fundamental meaning of the sentence doesn't change? Changing Tasheen Oji-san to Don't leave me is quite different, apart from the most broad interpretation that both sentences are expressing distress. All of the 5 sentences are different in terms of meaning or vibe, some more than others.

In post-game I noticed the subtitles of what Nata says on a constant basis say "I heard from the others" ... which doesn't mean a thing to me since I don't know what "others" he is talking about... BUT I couldn't help notice in the Japanese dialogue he explicitly calls my hunter "sensei". Like are we actually training Nata to be a hunter off-camera or something? Nobody ever mentioned anything about that, but it makes sense from him adopting leather hunter armour after the Zoh Shia credits. It seems a bit of a gross oversight in the localisation if Nata is explicitly referring to our hunter as his teacher.

[Chojoukif]

Originally posted by Khergit Horse Archer:

id imagine japanese into english translation is like chinese into english

like "dragon heavenly piercing immortal sword" is like 4 characters in chinese its stupid in english

I have some leeway for this, for example the "Dragonator" I believe is called "Gekiryuusou" (激流葬 edit: 撃龍槍) in Japanese, which is very hard to translate as it is a made up word. Now I think Dragonator sounds dumb as hell as an alternative, but I think they absolutely did need an alternative. I don't expect 1-1 tranlation, I merely want trying to be accurate to the source material.

edit: I had the Kanji for gekiryuusou wrong. I just googled it and the autocorrect gave me that and monhan so I figured it was it, turns out the kanji is actually from the Yugioh card torrential tribute XD Whoops. It looked strange to me but still sort of made sense. The real kanji makes way more sense and is much easier to translate as well "撃龍槍" i.e. something like "dragon attacking spear"

[Mrrshan68]

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

Originally posted by Chojoukif:

What do you mean the fundamental meaning of the sentence doesn't change? Changing Tasheen Oji-san to Don't leave me is quite different, apart from the most broad interpretation that both sentences are expressing distress. All of the 5 sentences are different in terms of meaning or vibe, some more than others.

In post-game I noticed the subtitles of what Nata says on a constant basis say "I heard from the others" ... which doesn't mean a thing to me since I don't know what "others" he is talking about... BUT I couldn't help notice in the Japanese dialogue he explicitly calls my hunter "sensei". Like are we actually training Nata to be a hunter off-camera or something? Nobody ever mentioned anything about that, but it makes sense from him adopting leather hunter armour after the Zoh Shia credits. It seems a bit of a gross oversight in the localisation if Nata is explicitly referring to our hunter as his teacher.

Nata is in charge of trading for you/collecting the resources the villagers gather for you, so "the others" is just the town npcs who gather for you/trade with you.

Also "sensei" in japanese can mean teacher but it can also be used to show respect to someone who is more skilled than you.
In this case since nata is an apprentice hunter he would call any fully trained hunter sensei as a sign of respect whether they were teaching him directly or not.
They can also use it show respect to someone whos skills they value, like doctors/scientists/mangaka can all be called "sensei" as a nod to their skills.

Stuff like this is why i prefer translations of entertainment media to be rewrites basically. Get a talented writer give them a direct translation and let them cook, it will still be the same story but it will be alot more entertaining.

[Chojoukif]

Originally posted by Mrrshan68:

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

In post-game I noticed the subtitles of what Nata says on a constant basis say "I heard from the others" ... which doesn't mean a thing to me since I don't know what "others" he is talking about... BUT I couldn't help notice in the Japanese dialogue he explicitly calls my hunter "sensei". Like are we actually training Nata to be a hunter off-camera or something? Nobody ever mentioned anything about that, but it makes sense from him adopting leather hunter armour after the Zoh Shia credits. It seems a bit of a gross oversight in the localisation if Nata is explicitly referring to our hunter as his teacher.

Nata is in charge of trading for you/collecting the resources the villagers gather for you, so "the others" is just the town npcs who gather for you/trade with you.

Also "sensei" in japanese can mean teacher but it can also be used to show respect to someone who is more skilled than you.
In this case since nata is an apprentice hunter he would call any fully trained hunter sensei as a sign of respect whether they were teaching him directly or not.
They can also use it show respect to someone whos skills they value, like doctors/scientists/mangaka can all be called "sensei" as a nod to their skills.

Stuff like this is why i prefer translations of entertainment media to be rewrites basically. Get a talented writer give them a direct translation and let them cook, it will still be the same story but it will be alot more entertaining.

Ehm, just wanted to weigh on this, while what you are saying is true, I don't think it it applies in this case. Not every occupation/ role is deemed as worthy of "sensei". To my knowledge, Never in the world or rise (haven't played anything older so I can't say in terms of that) has anyone,referred to a hunter who was not a teacher as "Sensei". By the end of world people treat the player character as a legend, in Rise they call you the Hero of Kamura, I think there is more than enough accomplishment there for others to refer to you as sensei as a sign of respect, the fact that they don't tells us this is not a title hunter's receive. I guess if you compare a hunter to a warrior, like Bushi or Samurai it makes sense, unless they place themselves in a teaching role, I don't really hear them being referred to as Sensei. And for the record, in World we did have an example of a teacher, The chief's son (Greatsword guy) calls the huntsman "sensei" during the Velkanna siege, but that's because it is his literal teacher. So if the player was not a teacher of Nata, a more appropriate word would be something like "Senpai", maybe "something + sama" to show extra respect or even "Aniki/Ane-san" if Nata feels a close bond to the hunter. The fact that he uses sensei to me implies that the hunter has spent some time teaching him how to hunt. I can't verify if its never mentioned in the subs but in my opinion it would certainly be a significant omission.