MHWILDS is First MH Game with 0 Elder Dragon thus far.

[Daryl]

Wilds, suprisingly didnt have any Elder Dragon in the base game.
You'd think that Arkveld would be but it isnt.
its classified as "Extinct Species"

Jin Dahaad is also suprisingly not an elder dragon given its size, and way of manipulating its surroundings and freezing everything it touches. its classified as "Leviathan"

and finally,

Zoh Shia is a "Construct" monster.


so yeah... aint that a doozy
No elder dragons yet.

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by Akip Xof:

An outside source suggesting they are elder dragons doesnt make them so, especially when it contradicts directly on what an elder dragon is, by actual in game definition that multiple characters state. An elder dragon is unclassifiable. The dangerous first class monsters are classified in that they arent even allowed to be classified as unclassifiable, they arent allowed to exist on paper because of the sheer destruction they cause.

Adding to that, elder dragon is a temporary classification that is a catch all, and exists only until it can be classified as something else.

nothing in it contradicts, is the thing, an elder dragon is NOT unclassifiable, they are classified by their danger rating.

for example: nergi? he'd be a brute under normal circumstances, he qualfies as such, but because of his status as an elder dragon, he moves to that catagory.

a black dragon is simply the top of the food chain that is the elder dragons, by the lore written.

Originally posted by zero:

for your sake i will re provide it, but "defy typical classification" does not mean "unclassifiable" it means we dont' call nergi a brute, because he belongs to the elder dragon and his status is outside the ecosystem.


sums it up, black dragon is a title some elder dragons have, fatalis is one of them.

No, Elder Dragons are specifically not classifiable. Nergigante does not qualify as a Brute Wyvern because it can fly.

In theory a Brute Wyvern could be a Black Dragon though because Black Dragon is not a biological classification.

They could create a new classification that describes monsters with four legs and wings that are not attached to legs and we'd suddenly have quite a few Elder Dragons less.

[zero]

Originally posted by AlbinoFrog:

Also, to you guys arguing if a Black Dragon can or can not be an Elder Dragon are completely missing the point of the classifications. The guild's classifications are purely for ecological purposes. The title of a Black Dragon is not one given based on a monster's ecology or biology. Dangerous First Class monsters are also not given based on ecology or biology. Dangerous First Class monster is a classification of danger levels/destructive power, not a biological classification. Theoretically there could a Dangerous First Class Fanged Beast (*ahem* probably Furious Rajang on crack *ahem*). Black Dragon and Elder Dragon are two COMPLETELY different classification structures, that is why a monster like Alatreon can be both. Biologically Alatreon is an Elder Dragon and its destructive power is equivalent to the other Dangerous First Class monsters. So it is a Dangerous First Class Elder Dragon. In universe this description is shortened to "Black Dragon" as there are several monsters that fit this description and they are all black (at least their base forms are).

that was admittedly my point a while ago, i was simply stating black dragons were elder dragons when this started, and thus this game has 1(one) elder dragon lol

[zero]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

Originally posted by zero:

nothing in it contradicts, is the thing, an elder dragon is NOT unclassifiable, they are classified by their danger rating.

for example: nergi? he'd be a brute under normal circumstances, he qualfies as such, but because of his status as an elder dragon, he moves to that catagory.

a black dragon is simply the top of the food chain that is the elder dragons, by the lore written.




for your sake i will re provide it, but "defy typical classification" does not mean "unclassifiable" it means we dont' call nergi a brute, because he belongs to the elder dragon and his status is outside the ecosystem.


sums it up, black dragon is a title some elder dragons have, fatalis is one of them.

No, Elder Dragons are specifically not classifiable. Nergigante does not qualify as a Brute Wyvern because it can fly.

In theory a Brute Wyvern could be a Black Dragon though because Black Dragon is not a biological classification.

They could create a new classification that describes monsters with four legs and wings that are not attached to legs and we'd suddenly have quite a few Elder Dragons less.

Originally posted by elder dragon:

Elder Dragons (Japanese: 古龍種 Koryūshu) are a class of monsters introduced in the first generation. Unlike other monster types, which classify monsters by shared traits, Elder Dragons are creatures that defy typical classification and reside outside of the standard ecosystem, regardless of their resemblance to a dragon. These monsters are rare creatures with immense power that have lived since ancient times.

this is by definition a classification.

its just not a classification by physcial charateristics, because elder dragons are classified by their danger level to the environment

[Cutthroat Cutwire]

i will say it doesn't help that "elder dragon" for the most part means "generic fantasy dragon build" nowadays. i feel like at this point you'd be safe moving monsters like kush/teo/cham into a new classification meant for their specific build and reserve elder dragon as a classification for actual anomalies.

considering wilds made gore's situation more confusing by giving it yet another new, completely unique classification that doesn't really make sense though i doubt they'll be making any logical changes to the classification system in the near future.

[Sigs]

Originally posted by zero:

snip

Kind of think you glossed over a bit of my post. The First Wyverians have allegedly been around since the cataclysm that started the whole deal. When they become lore important, it could (Capcom- looking at you) be very interesting.

The rest of them (mostly village chiefs or genetic freaks-- look at the village here in Wilds, got a lot in one place for once) I don't think have the same benefits as the firsts. Extended lifespans, yes, but not on a millenial scale. The games have been presenting them as 'relatively sexy young elf people' to the player in recent games.

The man in red is interesting, but I'm not sure he isn't just a plugin for 'it's engame time', since he was characterized as santa a couple of times.

Capcom being Capcom, I guess.

[Zogtar]

Originally posted by Akip Xof:

Originally posted by zero:

to which we go back to:

Fatalis is a black dragon, not an elder dragon. Its classified as something that can wipe out civilizations itself, and to the point where any record of its existence is erased from history. It "doesnt exist".

Fatalis is a first generation elder dragon. Always has been.

Along with Lao-Shan Lung and Kirin.

[zero]

Originally posted by barf babe:

i will say it doesn't help that "elder dragon" for the most part means "generic fantasy dragon build" nowadays. i feel like at this point you'd be safe moving monsters like kush/teo/cham into a new classification meant for their specific build and reserve elder dragon as a classification for actual anomalies.

considering wilds made gore's situation more confusing by giving it yet another new, completely unique classification that doesn't really make sense though i doubt they'll be making any logical changes to the classification system in the near future.

it doesn't mean looking like a generic dragon, its just a danger level, teo, the lion, and yama, the floating land mass, are both elder dragons lol.

it did start with the Black Dragon being the apex of what elder is, of course, its the classic fantasy trope, but they have put in some varied ones over the years.

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by barf babe:

i will say it doesn't help that "elder dragon" for the most part means "generic fantasy dragon build" nowadays. i feel like at this point you'd be safe moving monsters like kush/teo/cham into a new classification meant for their specific build and reserve elder dragon as a classification for actual anomalies.

considering wilds made gore's situation more confusing by giving it yet another new, completely unique classification that doesn't really make sense though i doubt they'll be making any logical changes to the classification system in the near future.

its just a danger level

No, it isn't.

[Cutthroat Cutwire]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by barf babe:

i will say it doesn't help that "elder dragon" for the most part means "generic fantasy dragon build" nowadays. i feel like at this point you'd be safe moving monsters like kush/teo/cham into a new classification meant for their specific build and reserve elder dragon as a classification for actual anomalies.

considering wilds made gore's situation more confusing by giving it yet another new, completely unique classification that doesn't really make sense though i doubt they'll be making any logical changes to the classification system in the near future.

it doesn't mean looking like a generic dragon, its just a danger level, teo, the lion, and yama, the floating land mass, are both elder dragons lol.

this hasn't been consistent since the introduction of the classification. first gen has lao-shan lung and kirin and they're wildly different in terms of threat level. it's not helped by the fact that there are multiple monsters now that are on par with elders in terms of strength and power, rajang and magnamalo being notable examples (granted magnamalo's just sort of badly designed). power level as a determining factor isn't a solid foundation for the classification at this point, and arguably never has been. the strongest rationale for elder dragon as a classification existing was weirdness factor, but as more elder dragons get introduced that share similar features and concepts the less that works as well. it's a classification that becomes less and less necessary the more we learn about monhun's world and it's ecology.

[Sigs]

Originally posted by Zogtar:

Originally posted by Akip Xof:

Fatalis is a black dragon, not an elder dragon. Its classified as something that can wipe out civilizations itself, and to the point where any record of its existence is erased from history. It "doesnt exist".

Fatalis is a first generation elder dragon. Always has been.

Along with Lao-Shan Lung and Kirin.

Fatalis was a hypothetical fight until World, where he actually came back to revisit in Shrade-- at least to my understanding. After the cataclysm that set all this off to begin with, the only events known almost world-round are the burning of Shrade and the revisit in Worlds to my knowledge.

No idea on the timescale, but a random guess over all the games would be something like 300 years since MH1 to MHW? and Fatalis was a myth with the history landmark of Shrade in MH1. Other than White Fatalis in whatever game it was in, I'm fairly certain the fights were just meant to be theoretical/engame fun until World, but capcom lore is capcom lore, hard to say.

[Shoah Kahn]

Wilds = ageist.

[AlbinoFrog]

Elder Dragon classification is not based on danger level. It just happens to be that every Elder Dragon is strong and dangerous. That is largely due to making it make sense from a game play perspective. It would be really weird to introduce something with the title of Elder Dragon into your game only for it to be weak. Theoretically though there could be a very weak Elder Dragon. However, Capcom would never do that because it doesn't make sense mechanically in the game for an Elder Dragon to be weak. Elder Dragon is strictly an ecological classification and has no bearing on it's actual power level. That is why there are tons of non-Elder Dragon monsters that absolutely stomp over weaker Elder Dragons. Hell, some Elder Dragons are prey to non-Elder Dragons. Like Kirin being hunted by Rajang for their horns.

[Sigs]

jesus, is nata's stupid necklace supposed to be a kinship stone. wtf are we even doing

capcom's on crack, argument over

[zero]

Originally posted by barf babe:

Originally posted by zero:

it doesn't mean looking like a generic dragon, its just a danger level, teo, the lion, and yama, the floating land mass, are both elder dragons lol.

this hasn't been consistent since the introduction of the classification. first gen has lao-shan lung and kirin and they're wildly different in terms of threat level. it's not helped by the fact that there are multiple monsters now that are on par with elders in terms of strength and power, rajang and magnamalo being notable examples (granted magnamalo's just sort of badly designed). power level as a determining factor isn't a solid foundation for the classification at this point, and arguably never has been. the strongest rationale for elder dragon as a classification existing was weirdness factor, but as more elder dragons get introduced that share similar features and concepts the less that works as well. it's a classification that becomes less and less necessary the more we learn about monhun's world and it's ecology.

you haven't really said why they aren't consistent, its threat to the environment, not to you, the player, kirin outright plays with weather, fatalis can ruin an entire location, jhen mohran is a walking landmass that can shape it with strength alone.

by comparison, if you left rajang alone, barring some monsters being killed, the environment remains fine, and that is the point.

[Cutthroat Cutwire]

was wilds secretly the monster hunter stories 3 we've been waiting for all along?!