Story is unbearably bad

[I]

They picked one of the most interesting part of MH lore and made a soap opera out of it. Tons of walk and talk and boring meaningless dialogs. ALL CHARACTERS are uninteresting and non-relatable, their stories are just poorly written and don't make sense, sometimes it feels like they cut some chunks that glue the whole thing together.

It got so bad I just had to start skipping all of it and I waited to play this game since MHW.
Just venting

[TROLLVATAR]

I liked it

[RiptheBlood]

This story was bad, even worse than MHGU and good luck finding where that story is.

Halfway through Low Rank, i was so confused as to what we were doing. MH3U we were dealing with unusual disturbances eventually chasing away Lagiacrus. 4U was focused around finding the origin of a strange stone and chasing Gore Magala and was actualy decent enough to follow. MHGU was super generic 'plz help us' with a random 'oh wow we spotted something BIG, hunter take care of it'. World was following Zorah magdaros nd learning of the truth behind the Elder's crossing. And Rise was defending the village from monsters going crazy eventually leading to the rampages.

Each of these games at least had a direction in Low Rank. For Wilds, we are helping Nata get back home, but we get sidetracked so we partake in a festival, explore a forest because a guy wants to look at a pretty spider, and get forced by Ewoks to hunt a monkey. Then all of a sudden, Oh yeah we had a story. Suddenly Arkveld appears and we chase him.

There is zero reason we did half of the things in the story, and the kid whining and crying to people who can't do anything makes me want to feed him to a hermitaur. "hE wAnTs tO lIvE". you know what kid, go ahead and throw that rock and see if it'll let you live. Cry to the non-Hunter elder that life is unfair. I was so happy to be rid of him in High Rank, then he became a HUNTER??? Crying so hard about a creature having the right to live, just to get a job where you turn them into hats for fun??? Yeah, i skipped a lot of dialogue in High Rank. At least Rise, World, GU, 4U, 3U, Freedom, and even 2 had something to latch onto in high rank to push the player.

The only decent part was when the story started hyping up Frenzy monsters for Gore Magala, but they dropped that ball so hard and once again 'Suddenly, Arkveld has returned, go kill every Apex because we said so'. "bUt hE wAnTs tO LiVe". Yeah, im sure Uth Duna also wanted to live, go cry about him.

[FoxyBox]

Първоначално публикувано от TROLLVATAR:

I liked it

Me too. Kind of tired of the hate.

[Zarviya]

The stories in monster hunter have always sucked that's why skip button go BBBBRRRR

[Mattrex]

Първоначално публикувано от RiptheBlood:

Each of these games at least had a direction in Low Rank. For Wilds, we are helping Nata get back home, but we get sidetracked so we partake in a festival, explore a forest because a guy wants to look at a pretty spider, and get forced by Ewoks to hunt a monkey. Then all of a sudden, Oh yeah we had a story. Suddenly Arkveld appears and we chase him.

Wilds can't decide if it wants to be a drama or a travelogue. The "Nata going home" and "Arkveld is here" bits are the drama, and the "look at a pretty spider" and "partake in a festival" bits are the travelogue. There's nothing wrong with either of those - there's not even anything wrong about combining the two - but the execution was kinda fumbled in this case. Wilds' integration of the two themes was clumsy.

To be specific, I think the big sin in execution was that so many of the "travelogue" segments had no real hook back into the "drama" segments. For a large part of the story, conversations go something like this:

"I've killed that monster that was causing you trouble. Hey, have you seen any traces of the White Wraith?"
"No, never heard of it."
"Darn. Well, let's go ask these guys over here after I kill the monster that is causing them trouble. Have you seen any traces of the White Wraith?"
"No, never heard of it."

And so on. If you're going to have these little slice-of-life segments interspersed with the hunt for the White Wraith, it would have been much more engaging for each little travelogue bit you do to give you a clue to propel you onward. The same was true of the Keepers - the expedition keeps asking people about the Keepers, no one's ever heard of them, and everyone just shrugs and says "go ask this very smart person", who as it turns out has never heard of the Keepers either. This continues until you just sort of stumble upon them when the plot decides it's time.

Aside from the boring dialogue, that may be the biggest problem. Everything is very disjointed, one scene does not really flow naturally into the next, and you never have any real direction other than the game deciding that one of the characters will randomly say, "okay, now let's go look over here". You're not really following clues or gradually unearthing revelations. You don't know anything until you stumble upon Tasheen and he spills everything all at once. They could have spread that out more to heighten the mystery, offer some narrative direction, and whet the appetite.

[FoxyBox]

Първоначално публикувано от Izunyami:

Първоначално публикувано от Red Fox:

I think you really hit the nail on the head here. As a (mostly-reformed) weeb, this is why I played the game in its original language. The repetitions of "aaah sugoi mori desu ne" become less grating when you're already inculcated into that culture, have lived there, and dealt with your fair share of "ah, kyou wa atsui desu ne," "mm, atsui desu yo" in all your day to day interactions with coworkers. The gesticulations and other mannerisms of the characters match up to the character models better in its native language but... depending on weeb levels, your mileage my vary.

Japanese games also have a tendency to assume the consumer isn't spending all day on the game, so they will repeat things and hold hands. See also: Zelda games with their repetitive tutorials. Skyward Sword was the worst for it. But in the Japanese culture, most people aren't spending that much time on video games, so repetition becomes a very Japanese feature of Japanese games. They're a busy people. Who knew.

I found that Nata's role and performance was basically every emotional shonen anime protagonist I've ever seen, right down to the emotional outbursts and the predictable growth in his story arc. Not the most offensive thing to my own ears, personally, but entirely predictable, and I can see why people dislike it.

Exactly. It's just a linguistic and cultural difference, as this game series is still mainly targeting Japanese people, especially kids and tired salaryman.

It's ok to dislike it. I prefer playing in Japanese audio since it does fit better and, when you know the language, feels more natural. But that person calling these writers bad for these things? That was a step way too far.

Thank you! More Westerners really need to appreciate this point. MH's story side has always been decidedly Japanese. I remember booting up World for the first time and realizing it was like listening to a bad anime dub. I switched it to JP and suddenly I was happy and not cringing. Same for every game I've played since. It's a cultural and linguistic difference! The fact that this one's got a shonen anime story is not surprising at all when you recognise the culture it's from and the audience it's aimed at.

[Mattrex]

Първоначално публикувано от Red Fox:

Първоначално публикувано от TROLLVATAR:

I liked it

Me too. Kind of tired of the hate.

I don't hate it. As I pointed out in my original commentary, I think many of the ideas embedded in the game are actually very interesting. In particular, I thought the idea of the Guardians being artificially engineered bioweapons run amok was inspired, and I wish the game had done more with it.

But I think it's flawed in its execution, in particular, identifiable ways. So I've tried to be precise in my critique, pointing to specific examples of flaws I perceive rather than a useless blanket statement of "oh I hate it, it sucks". Throwing that kind of generic shade says nothing, and can't even be meaningfully debated.

[FoxyBox]

Първоначално публикувано от Mattrex:

Първоначално публикувано от Red Fox:

Me too. Kind of tired of the hate.

I don't hate it. As I pointed out in my original commentary, I think many of the ideas embedded in the game are actually very interesting. In particular, I thought the idea of the Guardians being artificially engineered bioweapons run amok was inspired, and I wish the game had done more with it.

But I think it's flawed in its execution, in particular, identifiable ways. So I've tried to be precise in my critique, pointing to specific examples of flaws I perceive rather than a useless blanket statement of "oh I hate it, it sucks". Throwing that kind of generic shade says nothing, and can't even be meaningfully debated.

Ah but this is the internet. You can't be level-headed or nuanced here, good sir. Hate or love. No in-between. And certainly there is always more of the former.

[Mattrex]

Първоначално публикувано от Red Fox:

Първоначално публикувано от Mattrex:

I don't hate it. As I pointed out in my original commentary, I think many of the ideas embedded in the game are actually very interesting. In particular, I thought the idea of the Guardians being artificially engineered bioweapons run amok was inspired, and I wish the game had done more with it.

But I think it's flawed in its execution, in particular, identifiable ways. So I've tried to be precise in my critique, pointing to specific examples of flaws I perceive rather than a useless blanket statement of "oh I hate it, it sucks". Throwing that kind of generic shade says nothing, and can't even be meaningfully debated.

Ah but this is the internet. You can't be level-headed or nuanced here, good sir. Hate or love. No in-between. And certainly there is always more of the former.

People who are mad about something are more likely to speak up about it. Forums self-select for both people who have a complaint and people who feel passionately about a topic. Add to that the ego investment of "fans" who perceive criticism as a personal attack and respond to even the mildest critique by saying things that would have historically gotten them murdered, and we're off to the races.

I posted here not because I'm mad - "annoyed" and "disappointed" is about as far as my emotional state there goes - but because I'm passionate about writing and storytelling, and thought I had a perspective both specific and meaningful.

Every time I post on a forum it feels like a mistake, because saying anything at all is the fastest route to catching flak, but it feels bad to abandon the field to those of bad faith.

[󠀡󠀡]

F Nata

[Riukensei]

Първоначално публикувано от I:

They picked one of the most interesting part of MH lore and made a soap opera out of it. Tons of walk and talk and boring meaningless dialogs. ALL CHARACTERS are uninteresting and non-relatable, their stories are just poorly written and don't make sense, sometimes it feels like they cut some chunks that glue the whole thing together.

It got so bad I just had to start skipping all of it and I waited to play this game since MHW.
Just venting

You should of played all the other MH, Worlds story was bad. I like Wilds a tiny bit more.

[streber30]

Първоначално публикувано от I:

They picked one of the most interesting part of MH lore and made a soap opera out of it. Tons of walk and talk and boring meaningless dialogs. ALL CHARACTERS are uninteresting and non-relatable, their stories are just poorly written and don't make sense, sometimes it feels like they cut some chunks that glue the whole thing together.

It got so bad I just had to start skipping all of it and I waited to play this game since MHW.
Just venting

The Dialog and the story is completly created wit A.I. I work a lot with new AI stuff every day and I am very good in spotting that.

[BigJ]

Първоначално публикувано от streber30:

Първоначално публикувано от I:

They picked one of the most interesting part of MH lore and made a soap opera out of it. Tons of walk and talk and boring meaningless dialogs. ALL CHARACTERS are uninteresting and non-relatable, their stories are just poorly written and don't make sense, sometimes it feels like they cut some chunks that glue the whole thing together.

It got so bad I just had to start skipping all of it and I waited to play this game since MHW.
Just venting

The Dialog and the story is completly created wit A.I. I work a lot with new AI stuff every day and I am very good in spotting that.

No, not really.

If it was it would have to be stated as such to be in accordance with the European legislation of 24/11

[Atert]

Първоначално публикувано от Izunyami:

Ignoring the fact that a novel, tabletop RPG, TV series, movie, and video game are all mechanically narratively different and use completely different structures and techniques, something that you somehow do not understand as you're desperately trying to apply novel standards to a video game...

quote=Mattrex;599646234919116943]I am speaking here as a professional writer, one who actually makes a living writing fiction.

And my father is Elon Musk. Claiming expertise on the internet, with zero evidence to back it up, is absurd and ridiculous. But it is more sad that people are blindly believing you, even though one of the oldest rules of the internet is to not trust anyone because of how easy it is to lie while anonymous.

But the pacing is bad

This is a video game, not a novel. This series is gameplay-centered, not story-centered as well. Someone may spend five hours in-between two story quests grinding monsters, which will fundamentally alter how they perceive the pacing.

On top of that, the story is not the focus of the series. There's a reason why the story missions are colloquially called "the tutorial". Because the core of the game is after the story; if the devs made the story too long, it'd detract from the actual experience aimed for. The story is there to provide flavor to the environment and monsters. It's a vehicle for the grinding and gameplay, not vice versa. You're clearly applying novel pacing standards to a game while entirely ignoring player-choice, player-experience, and the entire point of the game.

, and the dialogue is bad. 90% of the words that people speak simply don't need to be said,

Monster Hunter is made for Japanese salaryman on the train (hence the 5 to 10 minute hunts) and Japanese middle-schoolers/high-schoolers who are burnt out from studying all day. On top of that, Japanese is a very context-dependent language that can use single word sentences to mean dozens of sentences. This is a relic of that language being faithfully translated to English, with the limitations of that localization (and the drama that comes from "being unfaithful"), the minimized focus on story over other aspects, and other elements.

The dialogue is not bad. You're just applying English linguistic patterns and adult-novel standards to a game with an almost exactly opposite linguistic cultural structure and for literal kids (and brain-dead tired adults).

and every time someone opens their mouth to utter some inanity like "wow, look at all the trees",

You mean.. being human? You've never went to a safari or jungle with a zoologist or any type of biologist before? I feel bad for you, you're missing out on core, fundamental human experiences.

the story becomes weaker, not stronger. This is a common pitfall for novice writers who think that more is better

See, this right here is why I think you're lying about your credentials. Or worse, you lucked into your little writing gigs, thought you were bigger and more skilled than you actually are, and now going full Dunning-Kruger holier-than-thou elitist about it.

You're actually complaining about small barks (that's what these dialogue sequences are called in video games, those superfluous background lines) that add to background atmosphere in a video game. This is one of those fundamental differences between novel writing and video game writing. A novel is a strict, lean writing experience that is focused on the core story-line and characters. You're suppose to cut all of those small lines of dialogue out as superfluous, yes.

In a video game, a different medium, the point is not to tell a strict story as lean and focused as possible. It's to immerse someone in a world. That's the point of barks - because inane ♥♥♥♥ is actually normal in the human world. In a video game, barks do not take up ink or paper nor do they take any length of time to experience that is actually measurably important. Versus in a novel, going line by line, the equivalent of a bark will pull you out of that lean, focused story.

They're. Different. Mediums. And this is why barks are some of the most memorable moments in video games, from Fallout to Starcraft to Legends of Heroes to Final Fantasy.

and who dramatically underestimate the strength of meaningful silence or economical dialogue.

The meaningful silence is the gameplay. That's the negative space of video game stories. And that's besides the point there IS a lot of "meaningful silence" during the story cutscenes. You're just choosing to ignore them for the occasional humanizing barks.

Even worse, "economical dialogue" really implies that your entire knowledge of writing does not come from actual study and decades of practice but from youtube videos. Let alone, once again, showing that you're applying novel standards to video games.

The problem is compounded by a particularly Japanese tendency to state the obvious, and then restate the obvious just in case you weren't paying attention the first time, and then finish with one last repetition for good measure.

Again, that's a linguistic cultural aspect that is compounded by the complexities of translating a class 5 language to English. You're applying English standards while ignoring these linguistic complexities.

If you want a more naturalized English localization, start arguing with the people who throw a fit when translations are not 1:1.

Probably a third of the dialogue in this game is just people repeating themselves,

Which this is also grossly untrue. The only times dialogue is repeated heavily is across quests; because, again, players may spend five hours between story quests and genuinely forget small details. It's called refreshing. This is a video game, not a novel.

This is even more true when we go back to the original target audience; over-studied students and brain-dead tired salarymen on trains. The only way you could perceive this repetition is if you blitzed through the story. As a video game, that is your choice and fault. It's a delicate balance video game designers have to design for and you have to deal with it or learn to enjoy all aspects of the game.

which not only damages the pacing but also insults the intelligence of the player.

Considering that you failed to comprehend the actual point of any of this "pacing" choices, and applying English and novel standards to a Japanese video game.....

You sure talk big for someone who comprehends so little.

Everyone in this game talks like they are either children or speaking to children,

Because they literally are 😂

and everyone behaves as if every single thing they've seen is the first time they've ever witnessed or even conceived of it. WOW LOOK A BIRD. WOW A TREE. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ THESE WIND CHIMES ARE MAKING MUSIC CAN YOU BELIEVE IT.

They're in a literal new ecosystem that was unexplored for, what, a thousand years? Yeah. A lot of it is new to them. Literally. I am guessing you've never actually left whatever country you live in. You can't even enjoy the narrative experience of enjoying new experiences and cultures - that's the only reason why you struggle to enjoy those segments.

I still remember Erik's introduction, in which he is busy giving an earnest explanation of the idea of "an ecosystem" and commensal relationships in nature. And he's not even talking about some unique, special form of symbiosis specific to the game - he's just giving a generic elementary school science lecture on mutual benefit.

Because not everyone in the game is a biologist; Nata is literally a child with no knowledge of any of it. Nata, by the end of the game, is a "hunter apprentence". They're teaching the kid these concepts. Narratively.

BTW they're also teaching the real-life kids playing this game. Because Asia actually cares about educating their kids. This game series' target audience.

Earlier Monster Hunter games had "better" stories because, ironically, they were not trying so hard,

I sincerely question if you've ever actually played any Monster Hunter other than maybe World. I doubt you played Rise and I doubt even harder that you played a MH before World.

the writers don't necessarily understand good style and are only accidentally following best practices.

Like you. Because this is all projection. And a showcase of how little you actually understand the writing craft, let alone how the writing craft applies to different mediums.

It's funny how you bring up Dunning-Krueger while you're right on top of mount stupid.
You write a lot but your reply has no arguments, only ad-hominems, dismissals and some bad faith arguments like "MH was made for salarymen on the train" which isn't true since world and you know it.
No i'm not going to dissect your whole reply, there's no reason to since everything falls under those three categories.

[Mattrex]

Първоначално публикувано от Atert:

It's funny how you bring up Dunning-Krueger while you're right on top of mount stupid.
You write a lot but your reply has no arguments, only ad-hominems, dismissals and some bad faith arguments like "MH was made for salarymen on the train" which isn't true since world and you know it.
No i'm not going to dissect your whole reply, there's no reason to since everything falls under those three categories.

I would have liked to ask him what he's written himself - I'm serious, if only to amuse myself - but sadly, he would be unable to reply.