Artian weapons were a mistake

[null]

Artian weapons need official skin overrides, similar to how layered armor works. Perhaps only enabled for skins you have rank 8 for.

Reason: Artian weapons are cannibalizing the core game.

They remove incentive to farm other weapons, because these are easy to make and even the "bad" variants are better than most other weapons (even the "bad" variants).
Actually farming for those weapons reduces relevant monster pool to like 20%.

On top of that, it makes everyone look very similar even when using different weapon types.
Applying skins of other weapons could make those other weapons relevant even when the weapon itself cannot compete in perforamnce.

[Retsubty]

Weak sauce MMO "artifact" weapon with no MMO grind to back it up.

[Миша]

I made few level 7 Artian bows (blast, water, thunder). Are they ♥♥♥♥ or what? Can somebody explain? Yeah, all of them looks same as one and this is annoying. Also, which stats is better when you making them? Attack or mastery?

[Anime]

You don't even need them to achieve anything in this game. I don't get why people craft those weapons.

[Captain Pansy]

they look like scrap from the junkyard honestly

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Publicado originalmente por Anime:

You don't even need them to achieve anything in this game. I don't get why people craft those weapons.

Because, other than Deco farming, Artian weapons are the current end-game.

[NoRa_G]

I don't bother with them cause they ugly and all look the same. I like the different monster ones with all their nice aesthetics, they really listened on making unique looking weaps early on after world had kinda meh variety to start. If Artian rolled appearance along with stats or you needed them for difficulty I'd worry about making em but yeah, I just sell the parts now

[null]

Publicado originalmente por Anime:

You don't even need them to achieve anything in this game. I don't get why people craft those weapons.

Are you really asking why people are getting the best weapons in a game?

Ok, I'll answer another ridiculous non-argument with a question: You don't need anything other than starter stick to beat Elden Ring(and pretty much every action game out there), so why do you upgrade your gear in any game ever?

[archonsod]

Publicado originalmente por null:

Ridiculous non-arguments aside, one of massive design pillars of MH games are compelling equipment options. Ore/Bone weapons aren't great, but they are easiest to craft, so everyone will have used them at some point.

In which case it's a pillar that's been missing since the first game. Every weapon tree has one or two choices which are basically better than everything else, that's always been the case. Everyone might well craft an Ore or Bone weapon early because they're easy to craft, but how many players do you see who are using one in the late game? In fact for most weapon classes is there really even a point to having the ore and bone tree extend beyond the second or third level? I'm also not sure how they turn 70% of content redundant; most weapon trees only use 30% of the monsters to begin with.
I'm not seeing them as any different from the Rampage weapons Rise had. At the point you could feasibly make one it's a decent choice, it's a country mile away from being the best weapon though, at least in the Glaive tree.

[Helmic]

Publicado originalmente por Nihrahk:

Publicado originalmente por null:

There's no rule saying you need a high end PC to play games. Why do you own/want one?
Would you buy a 4070 build if you saw a 4090 cheaper?

Ridiculous non-arguments aside, one of massive design pillars of MH games are compelling equipment options. Ore/Bone weapons aren't great, but they are easiest to craft, so everyone will have used them at some point. Both elemental options of the same weapon type have usecases/builds for them.

Artians turning ~70% of weapons (and therefore content to get those weapons) redundant takes a chunky swing at that design pillar.

Hopefully Mizutsune weapons are strong enough to fix that issue. If his weapons are still outclassed, that's an ouch.

That's kind of the problem with Artian weapons. So let's say Mizutsune weapons are better - OK great, now there's one mosnter to hunt again. Or, maybe more likely, there will be on additional weapon that might have a niche and then it's still Artian weapons for everything else.

I'm not sure if this is really gonna be fixable with just title updates, I don't think until we get the DLC with Master Rank we'll finally be rid of the things and maybe have meaningful weapon variety again.

Publicado originalmente por archonsod:

Publicado originalmente por null:

Ridiculous non-arguments aside, one of massive design pillars of MH games are compelling equipment options. Ore/Bone weapons aren't great, but they are easiest to craft, so everyone will have used them at some point.

In which case it's a pillar that's been missing since the first game. Every weapon tree has one or two choices which are basically better than everything else, that's always been the case. Everyone might well craft an Ore or Bone weapon early because they're easy to craft, but how many players do you see who are using one in the late game? In fact for most weapon classes is there really even a point to having the ore and bone tree extend beyond the second or third level? I'm also not sure how they turn 70% of content redundant; most weapon trees only use 30% of the monsters to begin with.
I'm not seeing them as any different from the Rampage weapons Rise had. At the point you could feasibly make one it's a decent choice, it's a country mile away from being the best weapon though, at least in the Glaive tree.

While it's true that every weapon type will only use a subset of the roster, adn often tehre's one or two standouts if the weapon isn't reliant on elemental damage, what monsters those are will vary by weapon type. So if you go to start grinding out monsters for a new weapon type, you'll find yourself hunting different monsters than you did for your main weapon.

Artian weapons, however, are completely universal, so switching weapon types won't change what you're hunting very much, outside of maybe needing some armor pieces. They take away from the game rather than add to it, which is why it's so confusing to see them in the game, mechancially they just don't belong. Hell, they don't even *look* like they belong, it's a very sci-fi look that clashes with the rest of the MH aesthetic. So I'm wondering if something had to be cut that would have made Artian weapons make much more sense in context.

[Lavis]

Publicado originalmente por Helmic:

Publicado originalmente por Nihrahk:

Hopefully Mizutsune weapons are strong enough to fix that issue. If his weapons are still outclassed, that's an ouch.

That's kind of the problem with Artian weapons. So let's say Mizutsune weapons are better - OK great, now there's one mosnter to hunt again. Or, maybe more likely, there will be on additional weapon that might have a niche and then it's still Artian weapons for everything else.

I'm not sure if this is really gonna be fixable with just title updates, I don't think until we get the DLC with Master Rank we'll finally be rid of the things and maybe have meaningful weapon variety again.

They would have to implement a system where we could upgrade existing weapons in the tree to keep them in line with new monsters added down the road like grinding lands from World or augments from Rise.

[Lavis]

The actual weapon trees are so small and the weapons feel so samey. The final-tier weapons all seem to have the same 3-2-1 deco slots and built-in skills are the same 4 or so recurring skills for each tree with some and some being completely at odds with how the weapon is played, like draw skills on lance and focus for glaive - that 15% faster charge is going to do basically nothing.

If you run element, you're even more limited with the ONE water, ice and lightning weapon in most trees then 2-3 fire and dragon. I'm also kind of shocked that every weapon type doesn't have a path for each apex.

For most weapon types, you'll get more mileage out of Artian due to the 3-3-3 slots even if you aren't getting 'optimal' rolls plus they are more versatile when changing up your build.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking with Artian weapons or half of the built-in weapon tree skills and I'm surprised they didn't start off with being able to layer only Artian weapons as that was a pretty big issue with Rampage weapons with early Rise.

[Diddy Kong Racing]

Publicado originalmente por Katitoff:

So don't use them.
There is no rule saying that monsters will no longer die if you don't use artian weapon.

how do you not understand the problem with this

[JPM岩]

Publicado originalmente por Helmic:

Yeah, the problem isn't just cosmetic. This can't be fixed by layered weapon skins, pardon the pun but the problem isn't skin deep.

Artian weapons are parasitic game design, https://youtu.be/xwHJqXKwRKM as defined by Josh Strife Hayes. The core of the game is hunting monsters for their loot to then craft into better gear, which you then use to hunt more monsters to craft yet better gear. Everything you do is iterative, your build slowly progressing over time as you find this or that thing you want and adding items to your wishlist and noticing oh hey that tempered monster has a pin in it I need it for that thing I want.

But Artian weapons don't interact with the normal gameplay loop and instead render it obsolete, at least for most weapon types. Once you unlock them, any previous grinding for weapons you did doesn't matter. You don't need to slowly build towards your weapon, you just get a weapon that utterly outclasses anything else you could be using immediately. As OP said, this removes the vast majority of the roster from relevancy (at least once you've got your armor set and talismans made). It reduces the game's interconnectedness and bypasses most of its progression, there's not a point where you can decide you want to try a new weapon type, craft one from the parts you do have, and then see if you like it enough to start grinding for other weapons in that tree, you just immediately make an Artian weapon and there will never be ar eason for you to hunt a Congalala.

Anything involving monster parts is just rendered moot, it's all about Artian materials and upgrade materials which are not distinct to any particular monster, so the resulting optimal grind is to just do Arkveld over and over and over again until you're sick of that fight, because the drops aren't differentiated. Doesn't matter what you want to craft, you're no longer self-directed in what you're grinding, you can't switch things up by picking something new to make.

I think Capcom has been making the mistake of assuming that people want the endgame grind to look like simply doing the hardest fights in the game on repeat endlessly, when in reality I think people actually enjoy having a reason to revisit every monster. It's not all bad news, I think their idea of giving hte player a buff to their passive gathering and better trades if they complete a hunt of a randomly chosen monster is really good for the game and at least encourages people to take a break from their grind once in a while, but it's not as good overall as it should be.

A better version of the good points of Artian weapons - the randomized boosts that ensure people could play for hundreds of hours trying to get the perfect roll - would be to give that system to the R8 versions of weapons and require you to hunt the monsters that make up each weapon alongside the apex predators/Arkveld. Use the monster parts. Require an additional random monster's parts for each upgrade. The materials used for a weapon and its upgrades are what give players their goals on what to hunt, and ideally as a game designer those material requirements shoudl be planned like an itenerary, it should be a *fun* mix that if a player obessively follows to a T still gives them a varied experience, of both hard fights that make full use of their kits and of easy fights that let them revisit early monsters and have fun bullying them.

As for whether Artian weapons are a sign of the game being "rushed", I don't think so. Every game is "rushed" because a developer could easily spend ten or more years working on a single game if there's nobody there to put pressure on them to release a finished product, the game has to ship at some point. The problem with Artian weapons isn't that they're unfinished or that the game overall doesn't have enough content, the problem is with the idea behind Artian weapons to begin with. The devs wanted to have a postgame grind (cool), they wanted to powerscale further and hype you up on the endgame (sure), but the way they went about it was flawed in ways that maybe don't make sense unless you actually grind out the game, which is hard to catch during playtesting. Like, in a vacuum the Artian weapons look futuristic/cool (well, that's arguable, but they look like they're supposed to be fancy), so why wouldn't players be happy to get them? I just don't think they anticipated it working out this poorly.

What a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ take. You still kill monsters for monster parts to make armor, artian weapons dont magically make that go away. Same with deco grinding.

[Lavis]

Publicado originalmente por Helmic:

Publicado originalmente por Nihrahk:

Hopefully Mizutsune weapons are strong enough to fix that issue. If his weapons are still outclassed, that's an ouch.

That's kind of the problem with Artian weapons. So let's say Mizutsune weapons are better - OK great, now there's one mosnter to hunt again. Or, maybe more likely, there will be on additional weapon that might have a niche and then it's still Artian weapons for everything else.

I'm not sure if this is really gonna be fixable with just title updates, I don't think until we get the DLC with Master Rank we'll finally be rid of the things and maybe have meaningful weapon variety again.

Publicado originalmente por archonsod:

In which case it's a pillar that's been missing since the first game. Every weapon tree has one or two choices which are basically better than everything else, that's always been the case. Everyone might well craft an Ore or Bone weapon early because they're easy to craft, but how many players do you see who are using one in the late game? In fact for most weapon classes is there really even a point to having the ore and bone tree extend beyond the second or third level? I'm also not sure how they turn 70% of content redundant; most weapon trees only use 30% of the monsters to begin with.
I'm not seeing them as any different from the Rampage weapons Rise had. At the point you could feasibly make one it's a decent choice, it's a country mile away from being the best weapon though, at least in the Glaive tree.

Hell, they don't even *look* like they belong, it's a very sci-fi look that clashes with the rest of the MH aesthetic. So I'm wondering if something had to be cut that would have made Artian weapons make much more sense in context.

Artian weapons have actually been around since MH1 and are essentially the rusted weapons. They look to have followed the rusted/ancient lance design. It was a mechanical weapon made by the ancients (pretty sure to fight fatalis), which is why they look all weird and sci-fi, same with the artian armor. You could find them by mining rustshards, which would rarely appraise into a rusted weapon, which then took a ton of earth crystals to upgrade. In Gen 1 IIRC they were all broken/worn versions and Gen 2 you could mine ancient shards in G rank, which led to the complete forms.

Artian armor in older games was crafted with rusted fragments and has the same style design as Wilds artian weapons.

There's a bit of context for ya! ;)

Edit:
If you want to look them up, some of their names were:

GS: Epitaph Blade
Hammer: Breath Core hammer
Sns: Eternal Strife
Lance: Undertaker

[Null Winter]

Publicado originalmente por MAXsandwich:

My only beef with the Artian weapons is the lack of design diversity. They should let you pick from a selection of designs upon forging. Having every single wep in a category look virtually identical is 1. boring and 2. makes the different elemental variants hard to tell apart when carrying them as primary and secondary.

I expected the colored lines to automatically change based on element, but nope, all the Greatswords have that ugly "blast orange" effect.