question about elemental damage and armor

[ryonavin]

So I've been playing MH since MH3 but to be honest I've never really seen the point to gearing elemental. In my limited experience Armor and Attack power seems to trump Elemental Damage/Defense. Is there a threshold I'm missing maybe? Example if I have a bow that has 230 attack but no damage and a 200 bow with elemental damage am I really going to kill an ice monster any quicker? And I get that by the same token Ice protection will reduce the amount of ice blight but from a defensive standpoint aren't I better off choosing an 87 defense and slot ice decorations vs taking a 60 defense with built in ice protection?

[lazer]

On the damage side weapons with elements and decent raw damage you deal addition damage based on each monsters weakness and such (I don't know exact details as I am not doing math in a video game) then depending on the effect you trigger said element effect (burning and the like) based on weapon (rule of thumb faster the weapon strikes the more hits need to trigger and vice versa)

As for raw defense it is always important to have high raw defense but I believe if you have negative defense of an element it has increased chance to increased chance to proc on you and will do bonus damage but raw defense should always be prioritized as that is the base modifier.

P.S. what kind of weapon do you use?

[ryonavin]

Originally posted by lazer:

On the damage side weapons with elements and decent raw damage you deal addition damage based on each monsters weakness and such (I don't know exact details as I am not doing math in a video game) then depending on the effect you trigger said element effect (burning and the like) based on weapon (rule of thumb faster the weapon strikes the more hits need to trigger and vice versa)

As for raw defense it is always important to have high raw defense but I believe if you have negative defense of an element it has increased chance to increased chance to proc on you and will do bonus damage but raw defense should always be prioritized as that is the base modifier.

P.S. what kind of weapon do you use?

Bow Main

[lazer]

So your weapon is good for applying status and elemental de-buffs

I would personally recommend using Blast and Dragon for element as most monsters are weak or neutral to them and deal around 150-200+ if you build accordingly (look for critical status)

As for status effects paralysis or sleep as paralysis is a free stun for the monster when built up and sleep is great if you are partying with players that can do big damage in one hit such as a great sword or charge blade and if you are soloing just bring bombs and role play an arsonist

[Veritas]

element is very minor for bow this time. the most important feature of a Wilds bow is a close range coating and any element a monster isn't immune to basically. status coatings were also nerfed hard in this game relative to how they've been in the past

[Draescan]

Raw is outperforming elemental in the current iteration. Go with raw damage, blast, paralysis, or poison. I don't know anything about a status coating nerf as the coatings are infinite in this game whereas you had to craft them before. Regardless I can usually hit para 3 times in a hunt and poison is never-ending. Blast usually procs NINE times in one hunt.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Snazzy Dragon:

element is very minor for bow this time. the most important feature of a Wilds bow is a close range coating

Excuse me WHAT?
Pierce Coating is the essential one this time. Close Range Coating is garbage because Bow Range has been nerfed basically to the point it might as well be a melee weapon and CRC reduces it even more. I find the weapon almost unplayable without Precision to boost range.

[Nou]

It depends on the monster and their "elemental hit zone." I don't know if they kept the same dmg calculation formula but for example in Rise/Sunbreak you would prefer using elemental weapon over raw if you're going to fight a monster with a EHZ of 25+, but you go raw damage if the monster has no EHZ over 25.

raw damage is calculated based on:
attack value * motion value * sharpness * monster hitzone = total raw dmg

note: if you crit, i believe you do 25% more dmg but that can vary based on "crit boost" you have. Crit is highlighted by a bright red line icon above the display number when you hit a monster.

elemental is calculated based on:
(elemental value * motion value * sharpness * monster elemental hitzone) + (total raw dmg) = your total dmg
------------------------------------------------

"And I get that by the same token Ice protection will reduce the amount of ice blight but from a defensive standpoint aren't I better off choosing an 87 defense and slot ice decorations vs taking a 60 defense with built in ice protection?"

I'm a little confuse by what you're asking ^ but to my understanding, ice blight is different from ice defense because Ice Blight is a status attack, it would not decrease the status build up of monster's ice blight attack you receive. (Unless they changed it). And, lastly why you would pref a 60 defense with built in ice defense is mainly because of deco.jewels, you can slot in an armor jewel that help you do more damage.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

Originally posted by Snazzy Dragon:

element is very minor for bow this time. the most important feature of a Wilds bow is a close range coating

Excuse me WHAT?
Pierce Coating is the essential one this time. Close Range Coating is garbage because Bow Range has been nerfed basically to the point it might as well be a melee weapon and CRC reduces it even more. I find the weapon almost unplayable without Precision to boost range.

1. pierce coating more than halves your damage in practice per arrow, it only really works on rey dau and arkveld but that is because they are bugged
2. bow has always been a close range weapon anyway, and close range coating is 40% raw boost with no minimum range penalty
3. ballistics doesn't even work on anything but power coatings, which are only a 30% raw boost instead of the traditional 50%. even if it does work with pierce coatings, see 1. and even if it worked on others, it competes with actually good weapon skill slots
4. skill issue

[Draescan]

Originally posted by Nou:

It depends on the monster and their "elemental hit zone." I don't know if they kept the same dmg calculation formula but for example in Rise/Sunbreak you would prefer using elemental weapon over raw if you're going to fight a monster with a EHZ of 25+, but you go raw damage if the monster has no EHZ over 25.

raw damage is calculated based on:
attack value * motion value * sharpness * monster hitzone = total raw dmg

note: if you crit, i believe you do 25% more dmg but that can vary based on "crit boost" you have. Crit is highlighted by a bright red line icon above the display number when you hit a monster.

elemental is calculated based on:
(elemental value * motion value * sharpness * monster elemental hitzone) + (total raw dmg) = your total dmg
------------------------------------------------

"And I get that by the same token Ice protection will reduce the amount of ice blight but from a defensive standpoint aren't I better off choosing an 87 defense and slot ice decorations vs taking a 60 defense with built in ice protection?"

I'm a little confuse by what you're asking ^ but to my understanding, ice blight is different from ice defense because Ice Blight is a status attack, it would not decrease the status build up of monster's ice blight attack you receive. (Unless they changed it). And, lastly why you would pref a 60 defense with built in ice defense is mainly because of deco.jewels, you can slot in an armor jewel that help you do more damage.

The problem with all of this you mentioned is that the overall elemental weaknesses of monsters across the board have been reduced and the raw damage effectiveness on parts has been raised even higher. That's why elemental is underperforming at the moment.

[Nou]

Originally posted by Draescan:

Originally posted by Nou:

It depends on the monster and their "elemental hit zone." I don't know if they kept the same dmg calculation formula but for example in Rise/Sunbreak you would prefer using elemental weapon over raw if you're going to fight a monster with a EHZ of 25+, but you go raw damage if the monster has no EHZ over 25.

raw damage is calculated based on:
attack value * motion value * sharpness * monster hitzone = total raw dmg

note: if you crit, i believe you do 25% more dmg but that can vary based on "crit boost" you have. Crit is highlighted by a bright red line icon above the display number when you hit a monster.

elemental is calculated based on:
(elemental value * motion value * sharpness * monster elemental hitzone) + (total raw dmg) = your total dmg
------------------------------------------------

"And I get that by the same token Ice protection will reduce the amount of ice blight but from a defensive standpoint aren't I better off choosing an 87 defense and slot ice decorations vs taking a 60 defense with built in ice protection?"

I'm a little confuse by what you're asking ^ but to my understanding, ice blight is different from ice defense because Ice Blight is a status attack, it would not decrease the status build up of monster's ice blight attack you receive. (Unless they changed it). And, lastly why you would pref a 60 defense with built in ice defense is mainly because of deco.jewels, you can slot in an armor jewel that help you do more damage.

The problem with all of this you mentioned is that the overall elemental weaknesses of monsters across the board have been reduced and the raw damage effectiveness on parts has been raised even higher. That's why elemental is underperforming at the moment.

Damn, that sucks then. So yeah go with raw then. Would be nice if they showed us the actual monster hitzone value instead of stars.

[Draescan]

Originally posted by Nou:

Damn, that sucks then. So yeah go with raw then. Would be nice if they showed us the actual monster hitzone value instead of stars.

Yeah I'm not a fan of it but I can remember a time where all I saw was diablos weapons when World dropped too so I guess this is to be expected at this point. The hitzones in Wilds also have these strange discrepancies where elemental weapons are a bit more effective but you're talking about 1 - 4 seconds worth of " Okay now your weapon does good damage on this one specific piece of a monster. " vs just doing good damage all the time.

[Scipo0419]

Originally posted by Draescan:

Originally posted by Nou:

*snip*

The problem with all of this you mentioned is that the overall elemental weaknesses of monsters across the board have been reduced and the raw damage effectiveness on parts has been raised even higher. That's why elemental is underperforming at the moment.

Let's use Rey Dau as an example.

The Hit Zone Averages (HZA), ignoring wounds/weak point are:
Slash: 42.7
Blunt: 44.1
Pierce: 39.4
Fire: 5
Water: 7.9
Thunder: 0
Ice: 10.7
Dragon: 5

I'm assuming these are percentages, so a 170 Raw Slashing weapon would do 72.59 damage before motion value and sharpness modifiers on average.

A 160 Raw/120 ice slashing weapon would do 68.32 Raw + 12.84 Ice = 81.16 damage before motion values and sharpness modifiers

You'd need 191+ Raw to outweigh 160/120 raw/ice for Rey Dau. Obviously these are just sample numbers based off weapons I have in my equipment box

Edit: I absolutely could have messed something up and my assumption about HSVs being percentages could be wrong too. So, if I made a mistake please correct me!

[Nou]

Originally posted by Scipo0419:

Originally posted by Draescan:

The problem with all of this you mentioned is that the overall elemental weaknesses of monsters across the board have been reduced and the raw damage effectiveness on parts has been raised even higher. That's why elemental is underperforming at the moment.

Let's use Rey Dau as an example.

The Hit Zone Averages (HZA), ignoring wounds/weak point are:
Slash: 42.7
Blunt: 44.1
Pierce: 39.4
Fire: 5
Water: 7.9
Thunder: 0
Ice: 10.7
Dragon: 5

I'm assuming these are percentages, so a 170 Raw Slashing weapon would do 72.59 damage before motion value and sharpness modifiers on average.

A 160 Raw/120 ice slashing weapon would do 68.32 Raw + 12.84 Ice = 81.16 damage before motion values and sharpness modifiers

You'd need 191+ Raw to outweigh 160/120 raw/ice for Rey Dau. Obviously these are just sample numbers based off weapons I have in my equipment box

Edit: I absolutely could have messed something up and my assumption about HSVs being percentages could be wrong too. So, if I made a mistake please correct me!

Correct, those Hit Zone Value (HZV) are percentages.

Your math is correct:
170 x (42.7/100) = 72.59

[Draescan]

Originally posted by Scipo0419:

Originally posted by Draescan:

The problem with all of this you mentioned is that the overall elemental weaknesses of monsters across the board have been reduced and the raw damage effectiveness on parts has been raised even higher. That's why elemental is underperforming at the moment.

Let's use Rey Dau as an example.

The Hit Zone Averages (HZA), ignoring wounds/weak point are:
Slash: 42.7
Blunt: 44.1
Pierce: 39.4
Fire: 5
Water: 7.9
Thunder: 0
Ice: 10.7
Dragon: 5

I'm assuming these are percentages, so a 170 Raw Slashing weapon would do 72.59 damage before motion value and sharpness modifiers on average.

A 160 Raw/120 ice slashing weapon would do 68.32 Raw + 12.84 Ice = 81.16 damage before motion values and sharpness modifiers

You'd need 191+ Raw to outweigh 160/120 raw/ice for Rey Dau. Obviously these are just sample numbers based off weapons I have in my equipment box

Edit: I absolutely could have messed something up and my assumption about HSVs being percentages could be wrong too. So, if I made a mistake please correct me!

Aye, but in practice that's not what we're seeing. Hence why I said what I said. It's really odd. I'm not saying elemental damage is useless, just that it has been reduced and raw has been increased. Also 191+ raw is SUPER easy to hit. I have 5 weapons of different categories that are hitting 230 - 250 base. Throw in crits, weakness exploit, etc you can easily hit almost 285 raw. Which is INSANE.

Sorry to clarify I should've said in practice we're not seeing this actually outweigh the benefits of raw damage builds at this time. However once again this isn't necessarily new. World at launch had a similar.....I'm going to say " issue " cause I don't really know if it is one but hopefully you get me.

Great example, did you know Lance has one of the most damaging mounted punishers in the game? Gravios Lance hits for almost 1100 damage with the right skills. I've managed it a few times but I need to break down my build and see how and why that's happening. For Lance, that's sooooooo busted, and it's blast yes, but from my understanding poison, paralysis, and blast don't interact with damage calculations like elemental does if I'm understanding correctly so for it to be hitting that hard is nuts.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Snazzy Dragon:

1. pierce coating more than halves your damage in practice per arrow, it only really works on rey dau and arkveld but that is because they are bugged

Not that I've seen. I use Elemental Bows pretty much exclusively and Pierce Coatings outperform Power Coatings every time.

2. bow has always been a close range weapon anyway, and close range coating is 40% raw boost with no minimum range penalty

Bow is, always was, and always will be a Mid-to-Long Range Weapon depending on shot type. Primarily Mid-Range for World and Wilds since Bows don't have different shot-types any more. It is a Gunner weapon, not a Blademaster weapon. If I wanted to have a face full of monster arse-pixels I'd use a Greatsword. And if I have to choose between Close Range Coating and literally no coating at all, I pick the latter because I get higher DPS that way due to not having to chase monsters around with my face up their arse like a Bladey.

3. ballistics doesn't even work on anything but power coatings, which are only a 30% raw boost instead of the traditional 50%. even if it does work with pierce coatings, see 1. and even if it worked on others, it competes with actually good weapon skill slots

1 is invalid, ergo the rest is invalid.

4. skill issue

Wrong. Weapon issue. And knowledge issue on your part.