Anyone care to explain Honest Hearts to me.

[NeverBeGameOver]

I've just finished it and still don't get the story anyone care to make sense of it for me. Oh also the story of lonesome road too I don't get the whole Ulysses courier six thing. I know the story of LR goes deeper

[Bansheebutt]

Honest Hearts was about tribals warring with another, highly dangerous tribe.. There is a conflict between the two main "good guys" whether they should simply abandon Zion or fight back and eradicate said dangerous tribe.

Lonesome Road is about a guy who saw you blow up a city and thinks he's a philosophical genius when in reality he's basically a wannabe sophisticated youtube commentator.

[Hindenburg]

There! Both DLC in a nutshell!

[MissRockyqo]

It all started with Caesar wanting to wipe out all traces of New Canaan, the place his disgraced Malpais Legate came from. Ulysses, came to the White Legs, and told them to destroy the place. Joshua Graham fled to Zion National Park, and preaches to the Dead Horses and Sorrows alongside Daniel, a missonary who was there prior to New Canaan's destruction. This is where you, the Courier comes in to travel to New Canaan. But get ambushed, blah blah, you meet the Burned Man, fetch quests galore, then you either have the choice of helping Daniel and the Sorrows evacuate Zion, or help Joshua Graham defeat the White Legs.

[Hindenburg]

Oh yeah. You don't remember blowing up the city so you think he's crazy. Which he kinda still is.

[A Disappointed Horse]

Honest Hearts:

Joshua Graham is a mormon missionary from New Canaan. He joined Caesar, but after the failure at Hoover Dam, went back to New Canaan as the Burned Man. New Canaan was later destroyed by the White Legs tribe, who wanted to join the Legion (Caesar told them that to join the Legion, they had to destroy New Canaan). Joshua and Daniel (another new Canaanite) went to Zion Valley to help the Dead Horses and Sorrows tribes fight the White Legs.
That's were you come in. You turn up, fight the White Legs, and either help Joshua destroy them, or help Daniel evacuate the tribes, leaving Zion to the White Legs. That's basically it.

Lonesome Road:

Before the events of the game, the Courier delievered various packages across the NCR and the Mojave and so forth. The deliveries the Courier made allowed a town known as the Divide to grow and prosper. Ulysses found this town, and believed that it could be a new home for him, and saw it as a new hope for humanity.
The Courier then, unknowingly, delivered a pre-war detonation device to the Divide, which set off various unlaunched nuclear missiles and completely destroyed the Divide. Ulysses survived, and saw how you destroyed his hope for a new home. He became inspired and set off to destroy the Courier's hopes for a better world in a weird revenge thing.

[Hindenburg]

Ok so that was better but I still liked the first explanation.

[psychotron666]

The story for honest hearts was pretty lame.

Basically the sorrows are tribes of people that descend from survivors of the apocalypse and are a mix of native americans and mexicans, the sorrows being originally a group of children that escaped some place they called the school and the principal was their boogeyman.

The survivalist (randal clark) is an old american that escaped the apocalypse and settled in the grand canyon and witnessed these new people coming to the valley (the group of kids, the vault 22 survivors, etc) and he protected them from above by killing the vault 22 guys and other raiders when they tried to attack the kids, and left them supplies and advice on how to survive.
The sorrows worshipped this person as their god, as he never made himself known to them.

The dead horses are a tribe that was taught how to fight by Joshua graham and worship him as a god.
Daniel (A mormon from Utah where they survived the apocalypse, the same people that joshua graham came from) is trying to bring god and religion to the tribes, and wants them to keep their innocence. The sorrows follow the teachings of Daniel (they think that their father in the cave - randal clark - is the god he talks about), and the dead horses worship joshua graham.

The white legs are enemies of the tribes settled in the grand canyon (they were in contact with Ulysses who was sent by caesar to tell the white legs that if they exterminated the tribes in the grand canyon and all traces of joshua graham, then they will be able to join the caesar's legion).
The white legs know only war, and they were taught some things by Ulysses, and in honor they wear their hair in dreads like he does.

The white legs are going to exterminate the tribes in the grand canyon, and it's up to the courier to help collect the supplies for the tribals to escape the grand canyon and settle somewhere else. So the whole DLC pretty much consists of the courier going on a scavenger hunt for these guys, and then at the end Joshua graham gives you a choice of running like a ♥♥♥♥♥ with Daniel, or staying and exterminating the white legs back (thus making it completely pointless for you to have gone and collected all of the items if you side with graham).

The big moral dilemma is daniel wants the tribals to keep their innocence and live in a world of rainbows and unicorns (and supporters of his view probably listened to John Lennon's Imagine one too many times), and Joshua wants to teach them how to survive. And depending on your ending, the tribals kill the white legs and become badasses, or they run away and keep their innocence, until someone bigger and badder comes along and rapes and kills their women and children.

Honest hearts is by far the weakest DLC of the group. There's at least a nice back story if you read the journals of randal clark, as in the back story is way cooler than the actual story of the DLC.

[Hindenburg]

Agreed.

[EolSunder]

I agree also, Randal Clark storyline was awesome with his detailed reports on his life in the valley and how the people progressed over time from when they showed up to when you arrive. A great backstory.

The actual main storyline is pretty basic in comparison. 2 friendly native tribes are trying to resist the enemy whiteleg tribe sent by Caesar. Daniel and Joshua are helping the friendly tribes (one backs peace, one backs fighting). And you are thrown in the middle. Its not much of a storyline its either fight back and kill the bad guys, or run like girls until eventually they catch up to you and THEN kill you.

[Vita, Mortis, Careo]

I think a lot of people miss the common themes that tie the arc together. The DLC arc poses two very important questions.

1. Letting go of past wrong doings, slights and ideas in order to liberate oneself.

2. The concept of nationhood. What makes a nation? What constitutes a people?

We are first introduced to these in episode one of the arc: Dead Money. The Courier himself hears an old broadcast of the old world. A siren call of past glory. So he investigates. Being trapped by his own curiosity, greed, lust, or whatever he meets four others.

God/Dog--Here is an individual who has split himself in two over the inability to let go of his past. As a super mutant, he was conditioned to serve a master, literally The Master, without question or want of self. But he is now masterless and unable to cope. Part of him knows this, and that part has split himself away from the other, that has latched onto a new and equally demanding master.

Dean Domino--Here is the man that, over a grudge, sought to take down Frederick Sinclair. It was all-consuming. He even enlisted Vera Keys in his ploy, and when she eventually sided with Sinclair he resorted to blackmail to retain her. And then when the bombs came he stayed, unable to let go of his hatred for both Keys and Sinclair for nearly 200 years.

Christine Royce--She came hunting Elijah due not only to decree from the Circle of Steel, but also what is clearly a personal grudge. The rogue elder seperated her from a lover, strongly implied to be Veronica Santangelo. And so she chases him to the literal and figurative ends of the earth. Her obsession is such that the Courier eventually has to either kill her or talk her down.

Elijah--The rogue Brotherhood elder was unable to cope with the New California Republic taking Hoover Dam and eventually Helios One. So obsessed he became that he scoured the known world for a way to get even. He met the Ciphers. He interrogated the Think Tank. He came to the Sierra Madre. He sent countless numbers of innocents to their deaths in his efforts. But at the end, when the Courier finally gets to talk with him substantially, he reveals the other part of the plan. He intended to make a nation and to use technology to do it. Technology will wipe out the undesirable. It will provide for all needs. It will ensure compliance from its citizens. For Elijah, it is force that makes a nation, and that force is technology.

The second episode features the contrasting characters of Joshua Graham and Daniel. Graham has another idea of what makes a nation. As he states it, it is common identity. At the end of the day you have family, and your family has tribe. His was wiped out by a man seeking only Graham's death. The player is given a choice--to let go of the past hatred or to stand and use it to fight. In choosing to fight with Graham we soon see what this conflict and the desire to stand and fight is really about. Graham cannot let go. He cannot reconcile the things he had done. He cannot see past the destruction of his nation. And in the end, with Salt-Upon-Wounds on his knees the Courier is given one last option--to pull Graham back and allow for an act of mercy and reconciliation with the past or to push him over the abyss. It is not only a question for Joshua Graham, but as we will see later it is for the Courier himself.

The third part of the arc pertains to the remains of science gone out of control. Horrible things were done in the name of progress, but for one man, Mobius, who has caused the others to forget. Forget themselves. Forget the nation. But this balance was disturbed by the arrival of Elijah and Ulysses. Mobius reveals that it was Ulysses that made them remember. America. The symbols. This is what made a nation. Progress. The Courier is then given the choice to wipe out the Think Tank or to have them let go of their desires to inflict wrong in the name of the nation which they think is right.

And then Lonesome Road. At the end of the DLC arc we find Ulysses. Like Graham, he has had his family, his nation, wiped out. He recalls the assimilation of the Twisted Hairs painfully. He carries that burden. But he found someplace where he though he could have peace. And then the Courier delivered a package. It was gone. The beginnings of a new nation, wiped out. And so, unable to let go he set the Courier up for what he thought would be certain death in carrying the Platinum Chip. When that did not work he had the Courier come after him in the Divide.

The Courier was, whether he knew it at the time or not, in the process of wrestling with the same questions. After being dug out of the grave in Goodsprings he chased his assailants across the breadth of the Mojave. Hunted them down one by one. Dealt with them either through mercy or vengeance. And then, he took a side. Maybe House. Maybe Legion or NCR. Maybe even with himself. He thought he knew what made a nation. Ulysses calls that into question. What makes you think you know what is best? And then, as a final act of vengeance Ulysses seeks to destroy what he Courier holds dear.

There, in the silo, Ulysses is juxtaposed with Graham and the Courier. Does Graham give into his hatred and ultimate self-destruction? Does Ulysses do the same and take thousands with him? And past it all, does the Courier take a final act of vengeance on the people who have wronged him? Do you act for the sake of a nation? A people? The DLC arc is one of the best written cycles that I have ever played in gaming. It alone makes the action gameplay tolerable for me.

[A Disappointed Horse]

Originally posted by Two Bears:

I think a lot of people miss the common themes that tie the arc together. The DLC arc poses two very important questions.

1. Letting go of past wrong doings, slights and ideas in order to liberate oneself.

2. The concept of nationhood. What makes a nation? What constitutes a people?

We are first introduced to these in episode one of the arc: Dead Money. The Courier himself hears an old broadcast of the old world. A siren call of past glory. So he investigates. Being trapped by his own curiosity, greed, lust, or whatever he meets four others.

God/Dog--Here is an individual who has split himself in two over the inability to let go of his past. As a super mutant, he was conditioned to serve a master, literally The Master, without question or want of self. But he is now masterless and unable to cope. Part of him knows this, and that part has split himself away from the other, that has latched onto a new and equally demanding master.

Dean Domino--Here is the man that, over a grudge, sought to take down Frederick Sinclair. It was all-consuming. He even enlisted Vera Keys in his ploy, and when she eventually sided with Sinclair he resorted to blackmail to retain her. And then when the bombs came he stayed, unable to let go of his hatred for both Keys and Sinclair for nearly 200 years.

Christine Royce--She came hunting Elijah due not only to decree from the Circle of Steel, but also what is clearly a personal grudge. The rogue elder seperated her from a lover, strongly implied to be Veronica Santangelo. And so she chases him to the literal and figurative ends of the earth. Her obsession is such that the Courier eventually has to either kill her or talk her down.

Elijah--The rogue Brotherhood elder was unable to cope with the New California Republic taking Hoover Dam and eventually Helios One. So obsessed he became that he scoured the known world for a way to get even. He met the Ciphers. He interrogated the Think Tank. He came to the Sierra Madre. He sent countless numbers of innocents to their deaths in his efforts. But at the end, when the Courier finally gets to talk with him substantially, he reveals the other part of the plan. He intended to make a nation and to use technology to do it. Technology will wipe out the undesirable. It will provide for all needs. It will ensure compliance from its citizens. For Elijah, it is force that makes a nation, and that force is technology.

The second episode features the contrasting characters of Joshua Graham and Daniel. Graham has another idea of what makes a nation. As he states it, it is common identity. At the end of the day you have family, and your family has tribe. His was wiped out by a man seeking only Graham's death. The player is given a choice--to let go of the past hatred or to stand and use it to fight. In choosing to fight with Graham we soon see what this conflict and the desire to stand and fight is really about. Graham cannot let go. He cannot reconcile the things he had done. He cannot see past the destruction of his nation. And in the end, with Salt-Upon-Wounds on his knees the Courier is given one last option--to pull Graham back and allow for an act of mercy and reconciliation with the past or to push him over the abyss. It is not only a question for Joshua Graham, but as we will see later it is for the Courier himself.

The third part of the arc pertains to the remains of science gone out of control. Horrible things were done in the name of progress, but for one man, Mobius, who has caused the others to forget. Forget themselves. Forget the nation. But this balance was disturbed by the arrival of Elijah and Ulysses. Mobius reveals that it was Ulysses that made them remember. America. The symbols. This is what made a nation. Progress. The Courier is then given the choice to wipe out the Think Tank or to have them let go of their desires to inflict wrong in the name of the nation which they think is right.

And then Lonesome Road. At the end of the DLC arc we find Ulysses. Like Graham, he has had his family, his nation, wiped out. He recalls the assimilation of the Twisted Hairs painfully. He carries that burden. But he found someplace where he though he could have peace. And then the Courier delivered a package. It was gone. The beginnings of a new nation, wiped out. And so, unable to let go he set the Courier up for what he thought would be certain death in carrying the Platinum Chip. When that did not work he had the Courier come after him in the Divide.

The Courier was, whether he knew it at the time or not, in the process of wrestling with the same questions. After being dug out of the grave in Goodsprings he chased his assailants across the breadth of the Mojave. Hunted them down one by one. Dealt with them either through mercy or vengeance. And then, he took a side. Maybe House. Maybe Legion or NCR. Maybe even with himself. He thought he knew what made a nation. Ulysses calls that into question. What makes you think you know what is best? And then, as a final act of vengeance Ulysses seeks to destroy what he Courier holds dear.

There, in the silo, Ulysses is juxtaposed with Graham and the Courier. Does Graham give into his hatred and ultimate self-destruction? Does Ulysses do the same and take thousands with him? And past it all, does the Courier take a final act of vengeance on the people who have wronged him? Do you act for the sake of a nation? A people? The DLC arc is one of the best written cycles that I have ever played in gaming. It alone makes the action gameplay tolerable for me.

I've never seen a better analysis of it. When put like that, it is pretty damned impressive writing.

[Hindenburg]

A masterpiece if I've ever seen one! Two Bears wins the 1# place prize for Best DLC Analysis!

[psychotron666]

And that's another reason i think honest hearts was the worst DLC and felt half assed out of them all to me.

The big choice in that DLC sort of makes it seem like doing it graham's way is the canon or proper way to do it, cus then you get the second choice with Graham and choosing whether he kills salt upon wounds or not (whereas with daniel you dont get another choice like that). Not to mention that anyone with a brain in their head wouldnt side with Daniel anyway.

Which is all fine and dandy, except for the fact that when you side with graham, then everything you did in the entire DLC up to that point was completely pointless, and what was stopping you from just going straight to the white legs base and wiping them out at the beginning except for the game limitation of salt upon wounds not being spawned?
Just adds to the testament to the bad writing of the DLC. And that all of the quests were just filler fetch quests with no true purpose.

I agree that it adds to the entire narrative of the story arc over all the DLCs, but as a stand alone DLC and story, it was very sub par for obsidian's quality.

[NeverBeGameOver]

Thanks for all the reponses guys loving them!

[Maki]

Ulysses' problems began the day he stopping using the pronoun "I" in sentences. He thought it would make him sound smarter than he was. Instead, other people looked at him funny for it, and in turn, he hated them and wanted to blow them up.

On second thought, Two Bears' explanation makes more sense...