DEAD MONEY: why everyone calls out us for being greedy?

[Michanicks]

Storywise we invited to the casino, but getting kidnapped, stripped of all our belongings and threatened by death to work for another person, but characters and/or story writers call out us for trying to rob the casino and for being greedy? Teaching us to "let it go" while we fighting for our life and have to work for our kidnapper? Is this oversight by the devs or intended hypocrisity and misunderstanding of the characters?

Even "if you go to the regular casino - this is a greed" is not a good argument for me, there is a lot of people who to to IRL casinos, if they getting hit by the truck on their way you not gonna say that "greed of wanting to visit the casino was the cause of their death".

[MurderMoose]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

You don't really understand what establishing narration is for, do you? The fact the narration starts after you've been kidnapped isn't relevant to establishing the fact that this is something your character knows. It's the game informing you, at a convenient time at the beginning of the DLC, of things that your character is aware of.

I don't disagree, i only complain because NPCs are SO insistant with their "letting go" and "being greedy" motives so it's start to feel like many many times before games try to teach you morale by forcing/assuming you have specific kind of morela/motives on your own.

Then complaining about the time that the opening narration played is pointless in the first place.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Would it have been better for you if the game said "This is a short story inspired by one-shot pulp comics of the 1920s wherein you play a doomed protagonist in a hostile world"?

No, because i didn't complain about narration.

You haven't really been clear about what your problem is. Dialog is tied to narration, your problem seems to be a lack of dialog-driven choices to refute the point of the DLC. And now it sounds to me like you want... to argue in game about the point of it's message? If I'm misunderstanding, please clarify because I'm not sure what the core thesis of your problem even is at this point.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

And besides, if you character would really hold true to their convictions that strongly, they can just die, and you can avoid doing that DLC on reload.

My character didn't know beforehand these things, i acted naturally. I hear invitation, my char addint it to pip-boy - why wouldn't i visit it, i already was in 5 casinos, nobody punished me for visiting them.

You were warned before entering the Abandoned Brotherhood of Steel Bunker that the DLC would proc, you can feel free to justify that as your character having severe second thoughts and a bad vibe about what they're about to walk into. And if you have been to five casinos, it is not greedy to go searching for a sixth? Is it not bizarre to see the signal coming from a dead end with cots in a closed off bunker before you get close enough to actually get trapped? At what point does the character's willful ignorance stop being an excuse to justify their actions?

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

No one is forcing you to do Dead Money, and if you want to in spite of your opposition to the narrative cohesion with the character you've build, then that says something about the inherent greed the game is calling you out on, doesn't it?

Only in case the things you've assumed are true.

Well, if you were more clear, I'd have a better understanding of what the issue was.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

And again, you can't refute their claims of your greed because you have much better things to worry about. Maybe consider that being a whiny pedant about motives matters for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when you're kidnapped and hostage in a dangerous area, and on top it that, it's absolutely not endearing to people like a 200 year old bitter ghoul, a super mutant with a fractured mine, and a mute Brotherhood of Steel hitman. You would do your character no favors by acting the way you seem to want to.

There is a lot of things to worry about but i doesn't stop me from asking them not that really important questions, being kind to them, being hostile to them, threatening them, anything but "what are you talking about, i just heard the invitation".

Also i didn't complain about mute, she was nice and ok even after she regained ability to talk.

All those things are related to establishing a report and building trust, or establishing dominance and building animosity with your companions. Again, it does no favors to be like "Well, actually, I just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ into a trap and thought 'well I really don't want to die' so here I am!" I didn't say you were complaining about any of the companions, so you bringing up that you liked Christine is... nice? I'm glad you liked one of the characters, but I don't see the relevance.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

What? Do... do you honest think that someone build a legendary lost casino in a city of death post-war? Do you think that people are trying to find it for the sake of gambling?

1) Maybe i expressed it wrong, i meant the casino that stop functioning after war completely. I didn't know this because i heard the invitation - at this point we don't know it's just a glitch;
2) Why not? There is 150 casinos in current Las Vegas alone, our char not supposed to know lore, history and status of all of them. He personally is the reason Vikki and Vance start to work again.

Still don't really understand. The casino did shut down, and the only reason why you can gamble there is because you reactivate it and it's automated. The inherent level of difficulty in finding the Madre alone let alone getting to it is a pretty good argument against simple gambling as a motive.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

No one is going to the Sierra Madre to sightsee or gamble.

I did. Didn't check the wiki beforehand, my bad.

You are not your character, and you had the knowledge ahead of time by virtue of buying and installing the DLC. Just because you don't know what you installed doesn't mean it's not an extra piece of content originally predicated on being opt-in.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

You know Reno and Vegas exist, so there's got to be some other reason why they'd go to a pre-war casino rumored to be filled with riches protected by holograms who kill anything living on sight.

It's the only casino that invites people by radio and has a special quest marker just for visiting.

Yes. It was a trap. That's why it was only a radio signal and a myth.

[RequiemsRose]

I figured all the greed talk was general foreshadowing disguised as NPC perspectives. Pretty much all of the other characters you are forced to work with have their own personal reasons for being there, largely motivated by their own self interests (you don't know this initially though, and tend to find out when its least convenient). All of them fair better if you can help them "let it go" as well, in their own unique ways. Plus, if you refuse to let go at the finale of this DLC the intended design is that you end up trapped forever (though we are the MC so of course that isn't actually where our story stops....and genuinely greedy players already figured out you can refuse to let go and still make it out just fine).

Tl:DR: I figured all the talk about greed was just the general theme of that particular DLC

[Michanicks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Then complaining about the time that the opening narration played is pointless in the first place.

Of course! You brought it first. I didn't complain about opening narration to begin with until you mentioned it supposed to proof something.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

You haven't really been clear about what your problem is. Dialog is tied to narration, your problem seems to be a lack of dialog-driven choices to refute the point of the DLC. And now it sounds to me like you want... to argue in game about the point of it's message? If I'm misunderstanding, please clarify because I'm not sure what the core thesis of your problem even is at this point.

Some particular voice lines don't have to be connected with overall narration.
When Kass talks about Big ♥♥♥♥ Johnson it doesn't mean anything for narration, if person loved or hated this line it doesn't mean that he loved or hated the narration.

And SM "you got here because of your greed" feel just as disconected from the reality as line about Johnson.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

You were warned before entering the Abandoned Brotherhood of Steel Bunker that the DLC would proc

"DLC would proc", not "you character gonna be stripped of everything, tied to a bomb collar and forced to work for some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥". Yet again, i'm sorry i didn't spoil myself about what's gonna happen after i go to DLC.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

, you can feel free to justify that as your character having severe second thoughts and a bad vibe about what they're about to walk into

Yeah, if i would know what's gonna happen. Would be really nice for my character to see future, but alas, there is multiple working radio stations in game, it really would take psychic abilities for my character to realise this one radio in particular is a trap.

It's really nice to solve the problem when you already know the answer.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

. And if you have been to five casinos, it is not greedy to go searching for a sixth?

No? Man, you go in such far way in your assumption to justify some minor thing it's ridiculous.
Or do you mean that these characters who scolded me for being greedy somehow knew it's my 6th casino? What if it would be my character's first one? Your argument would break apart then.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Is it not bizarre to see the signal coming from a dead end with cots in a closed off bunker before you get close enough to actually get trapped?

We can't see it's a dead end before we get close and when we get close we getting drugged. Check it yourself, you lose controls long before you see there is nothing in the room.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

At what point does the character's willful ignorance stop being an excuse to justify their actions?

Exactly at the point NPC will quit ther psychic abilities to learn about my thoughs and previous actions before

The only reason you know about my character visiting 6 casinos and didn't reading Fallout wiki to know that radio room is dead end and "DLC proc" means "getting drugged and stripped" is because i told you so. DLC Characters, on the other hand, by your explanation acting like story and thoughs of my char is some common knowledge which is ridiculous.

Seriously, man, you go so bizzarely far to justify this thing i starting to think you taking it personal.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

All those things are related to establishing a report and building trust, or establishing dominance and building animosity with your companions. Again, it does no favors to be like "Well, actually, I just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ into a trap and thought 'well I really don't want to die' so here I am!" I didn't say you were complaining about any of the companions, so you bringing up that you liked Christine is... nice? I'm glad you liked one of the characters, but I don't see the relevance.

You mentioned "mute assassin" first, i told you i didn't complain about her. Why? Because she is the only one who goes "wah, you here because of your greed, didn't you know being greedy is bad? All of this could be avoided if you didn't want to take treasures!"

That's where relevance: i didn't complain about one of the character you brought.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Still don't really understand. The casino did shut down, and the only reason why you can gamble there is because you reactivate it and it's automated.

Yeah. it's why i don't see how it would be impossible for "city of dead with pre-war casino" to... begin again. Once again, we don't know beforehand that Villa is infested with ghosts, toxic fog and hundreds of beartraps. We don't even know beforehand that city is completely dead - NPCs don't talk about this city, how would we know?

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

The inherent level of difficulty in finding the Madre alone let alone getting to it is a pretty good argument against simple gambling as a motive.

Goint to the source of signal (no harder than to reach Nelson) - walking into the hub (i expected it to be a tonnel) - seeing funny radio - getting drugged. The sheer inhuman difficulty.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

You are not your character, and you had the knowledge ahead of time by virtue of buying and installing the DLC. Just because you don't know what you installed doesn't mean it's not an extra piece of content originally predicated on being opt-in.

It's getting ridiculous. I never seen people would justify actions in game by meta knowledge of player buying DLC which would mean some knowledge to player character.

I bought the game + bundle of like 6 DLC, i don't have to study all this extra content before i even play the game for the first time. No one does that to explain the dialogues in one particular DLC for the game. I played many games and DLC for them without much, if any such problems.

It would be as logical as me learning all the new guns and ammo calibers GRA brough just in case it would have impact on meta knowledge my playing character does.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

It's the only casino that invites people by radio and has a special quest marker just for visiting.

Yes. It was a trap. That's why it was only a radio signal and a myth. [/quote]
You don't say. A radio signal, like one of many in game, and a myth we learn only after going to the DLC.

[Michanicks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av RequiemsRose:

I figured all the greed talk was general foreshadowing disguised as NPC perspectives. Pretty much all of the other characters you are forced to work with have their own personal reasons for being there, largely motivated by their own self interests (you don't know this initially though, and tend to find out when its least convenient). All of them fair better if you can help them "let it go" as well, in their own unique ways. Plus, if you refuse to let go at the finale of this DLC the intended design is that you end up trapped forever (though we are the MC so of course that isn't actually where our story stops....and genuinely greedy players already figured out you can refuse to let go and still make it out just fine).

Tl:DR: I figured all the talk about greed was just the general theme of that particular DLC

Yeah, that seems good. For me characters seems to have valid problems, but greed itself wasn't really highlighted in any of them, maybe besides Dean. If we go for 7 sins, then i can assume that:
1) Dog is gluttony;
2) Dean is pride;
3) God is wrath;
4) Elijah is lust (for power);
5) Mute is... i don't know. We can assume any sin and it would be really too much of a reach. Maybe she is the wrath, going such a long way to kill someone. And who would be the sloth then, ghosts? I think there is no ties with 7 sins, it's just different interesting characters with different goals and problems.

[MurderMoose]

"We can't see it's a dead end" yes you absolutely can. It's like talking to a brick wall. Clearly you are dead set in your opinion and are unable to consider the logic of things, nevermind the fact that you often conflate the causes of things in-universe with why they're there for the player themselves. I'm sorry you've had such a bad time playing Dead Money, but you're far from the first or last to do so. If you don't want to understand the moral of the tale, that's fine, but it's not the writer's fault that you can't parse parables about Greed and what it represents on a literal, biblical sense.

[Michanicks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

"We can't see it's a dead end" yes you absolutely can. It's like talking to a brick wall.

Don't lie. I replayed this moment few times, we getting drugged before we can check the room on left and right. Just because there is no hall on forward doesn't mean could be no doors/pathways on the left/right/corners. Damn. i played it not long time ago, i remember it clearly, as opposed to you who only remember this room after he already knows there is nothing on rest of the walls.

But judging by your replies... there is probably some old legend about how this bunker has a dead end room and i should know this when i bought the DLC.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Clearly you are dead set in your opinion and are unable to consider the logic of things, nevermind the fact that you often conflate the causes of things in-universe with why they're there for the player themselves

Or maybe your arguments weren't as good as you think they were.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

. I'm sorry you've had such a bad time playing Dead Money, but you're far from the first or last to do so.

You figured it out by me complaining about a single aspect of the game, a repeated leimotiff in particular?

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

If you don't want to understand the moral of the tale

Moral of the tale is that you can justify anything if try hard enough? You tried to justify NPC dialogues with me visiting 5 casinos beforehand which is complitely optional and NPCs aren't supposed to know anyway, that's how much this moral in these particular voicelines worth.

Since when "greed is bad" become a hard to understand moral? Since when NPC being disconnected from reality makes "morale of the tale"?

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

, that's fine, but it's not the writer's fault that you can't parse parables about Greed and what it represents on a literal, biblical sense.

Damn. Man. It's NPC dialogues. It's hypocritic NPCs dialogues insulting our playing character for the wrong reasons making it all looking like a misunderstanding. Just because you love the game doesn't mean it flawless and that when sadistic super mutant think we got ourself kidnapped because we wanted to rob the place it means there is some deep biblical sense. Really? Why being so delusional in attempts to justify NPCs acting like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥?

You tried to justify it with me doing optional things as visiting casinos, with player supposing to have meta knowledge by buying DLCs, with players characters visitng some place from cardinally different reason player does in RPG (Roleplaying Game, not some action adventure) to getting chewed out for it, to make connection with Holy Bible concepts, by trying to find the solutions to the problem where you already know the answers, how much more of mental gymnastic you can afford?

[RequiemsRose]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Yeah, that seems good. For me characters seems to have valid problems, but greed itself wasn't really highlighted in any of them, maybe besides Dean. If we go for 7 sins, then i can assume that:
1) Dog is gluttony;
2) Dean is pride;
3) God is wrath;
4) Elijah is lust (for power);
5) Mute is... i don't know. We can assume any sin and it would be really too much of a reach. Maybe she is the wrath, going such a long way to kill someone. And who would be the sloth then, ghosts? I think there is no ties with 7 sins, it's just different interesting characters with different goals and problems.

Sloth could be every other npc faction in this entire game that has to rely on a post apocalyptic mailman to tip every scale currently in balance for them. But that's mostly just being the main character, would be boring if we didnt have lofty goals, so maybe we are greedy. Greed isnt always about specifically wealth. Wealth just happens to be exchangeable for pretty much every other form of greed as well.

[MurderMoose]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

"We can't see it's a dead end" yes you absolutely can. It's like talking to a brick wall.

Don't lie. I replayed this moment few times, we getting drugged before we can check the room on left and right. Just because there is no hall on forward doesn't mean could be no doors/pathways on the left/right/corners. Damn. i played it not long time ago, i remember it clearly, as opposed to you who only remember this room after he already knows there is nothing on rest of the walls.

But judging by your replies... there is probably some old legend about how this bunker has a dead end room and i should know this when i bought the DLC.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

Clearly you are dead set in your opinion and are unable to consider the logic of things, nevermind the fact that you often conflate the causes of things in-universe with why they're there for the player themselves

Or maybe your arguments weren't as good as you think they were.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

. I'm sorry you've had such a bad time playing Dead Money, but you're far from the first or last to do so.

You figured it out by me complaining about a single aspect of the game, a repeated leimotiff in particular?

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

If you don't want to understand the moral of the tale

Moral of the tale is that you can justify anything if try hard enough? You tried to justify NPC dialogues with me visiting 5 casinos beforehand which is complitely optional and NPCs aren't supposed to know anyway, that's how much this moral in these particular voicelines worth.

Since when "greed is bad" become a hard to understand moral? Since when NPC being disconnected from reality makes "morale of the tale"?

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

, that's fine, but it's not the writer's fault that you can't parse parables about Greed and what it represents on a literal, biblical sense.

Damn. Man. It's NPC dialogues. It's hypocritic NPCs dialogues insulting our playing character for the wrong reasons making it all looking like a misunderstanding. Just because you love the game doesn't mean it flawless and that when sadistic super mutant think we got ourself kidnapped because - and you found here some deep biblical sense? Really? Why being so delusional in attempts to justify NPCs acting like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥?

You tried to justify it with me doing optional things as visiting casinos, with player supposing to have meta knowledge by buying DLCs, with players characters visitng some place from cardinally different reason player does in RPG (Roleplaying Game, not some action adventure) to getting chewed out for it, to make connection with Holy Bible concepts, by trying to find the solutions to the problem where you already know the answers, how much more of mental gymnastic you can afford?

I'm going to repeat the very first thing I said.

Opprinnelig skrevet av MurderMoose:

This is a silly thread.

I don't know how much time you can afford to sit here and write essays I'm not going to read, but I just want to let you know, I legitimately laughed out loud for a second when I saw the length.

[Michanicks]

Keep me updated, everyone really need to know how much, where and why you rolled over floor laughting.

[MurderMoose]

https://media1.tenor.com/m/WtS9nRbHLysAAAAd/why-you-heff-to-be-mad.gif

[di eshor ribly]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Then why our character asks NPCs about lore and act surprised learning it?

Brain damage. The Courier did get shot in the head after all.

[Michanicks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av di eshor ribly:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Michanicks:

Then why our character asks NPCs about lore and act surprised learning it?

Brain damage. The Courier did get shot in the head after all.

Hm, that's really exaplains it all.

[LCpl Nubcake]

I think you might be getting too hung up on "being called out". The theme of "letting go" doesn't necessarily apply to you, more-so the characters in Dead Money especially in the case of Elijah, Dean Domino, and Sinclair. It's what created the situation at Sierra Madre in the first place and plays into characters already mentioned in the base game and the other DLC's. The greed part might only apply if you try and make off with all the gold, but realize that you'll be too heavy to make it out of the vault before exploding. As for your own motives for being there, even if you're not the greedy sort, you were either curious or unfortunate enough to stumble into the Sierra Madre. And another unlucky soul is all what Elijah needs.

[Vassago Rain]

Because Chris Avellone thought that fallout needed to be super railroady, right down to your character's agency and motivations.

[Michanicks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av LCpl Nubcake:

I think you might be getting too hung up on "being called out". The theme of "letting go" doesn't necessarily apply to you, more-so the characters in Dead Money especially in the case of Elijah, Dean Domino, and Sinclair. It's what created the situation at Sierra Madre in the first place and plays into characters already mentioned in the base game and the other DLC's. The greed part might only apply if you try and make off with all the gold, but realize that you'll be too heavy to make it out of the vault before exploding. As for your own motives for being there, even if you're not the greedy sort, you were either curious or unfortunate enough to stumble into the Sierra Madre. And another unlucky soul is all what Elijah needs.

Thank you for explaining.