Caesar was unironically the good guy, here's why

[ureaditwrong]

Most people interpret what Caesar has to say literally and conclude that he is just a cheap caricature of all the worst aspects of ancient Rome.

But the Legion is nothing like ancient Rome. In fact, ancient Rome and the NCR are probably more similar to each other than ancient Rome and the Legion. Caesar never claims to be emulating Rome, only using it as a basis for his ideology.

What Caesar is actually trying to do hasn't really been attempted before. He wants to create a society oriented around nationalism, instead of an economy. The dialectic struggle he mentions is one of new vs old, instead of poor vs rich. The negative aspects of the Legion we see in-game are merely part of the struggle to reach synthesis, which is a tale that every real-life country can relate to.

But if the Legion were to capture New Vegas, they wouldn't need to take slaves anymore, because there would be nothing left to build or conquer. They would have the homeland they were looking to dedicate themselves to. That's actually what Caesar tries to say in game.

TL;DR, Caesar is actually pretty progressive

[jomigaru]

Good point, but no. When a movement preaching scorched earth is created you cant just deprogram the people (previously brainwashed) supporting the movement because someone else will step up to claim you have gone soft and ultimately deposing the former leader.

[Cyan]

>What Caesar is actually trying to do hasn't really been attempted before. He wants to create a society oriented around nationalism

So Caesar is Hitler?

[AC Denton]

no

[ureaditwrong]

Originally posted by Cyan:

>What Caesar is actually trying to do hasn't really been attempted before. He wants to create a society oriented around nationalism

So Caesar is Hitler?

No, Hitler was socialist, and therefore a proponent of the traditional economic dialectic

[ureaditwrong]

Originally posted by jomigaru:

Good point, but no. When a movement preaching scorched earth is created you cant just deprogram the people (previously brainwashed) supporting the movement because someone else will step up to claim you have gone soft and ultimately deposing the former leader.

But it's theorized in game that the legionaries are so loyal to Caesar, that the legion will collapse if he dies

[jomigaru]

Originally posted by ureaditwrong (xigg/xer):

Originally posted by jomigaru:

Good point, but no. When a movement preaching scorched earth is created you cant just deprogram the people (previously brainwashed) supporting the movement because someone else will step up to claim you have gone soft and ultimately deposing the former leader.

But it's theorized in game that the legionaries are so loyal to Caesar, that the legion will collapse if he dies

I guess we can just theorize about that. My guess is if Caesar died, someone more ruthless like legate Lanius would take command (as it happens in the game if Caesar dies) and the Legion would collapse because they would chew more than they could bite, meaning their constant war mongering would eventually lead Legion to dissapear, but they would not go quetly.

[LCpl Nubcake]

See the problem is, while Caesar doesn't want the Legion to emulate Rome, Caesar wants to emulate Caesar. He models himself based on Caesar's campaigns like his crossing of the Rubicon. This comes at the expense of his Legion. He puts himself and his namesake above the Legion without understanding the things that made Rome great.

Rome was at the forefront in terms of infrastructure and technology for its time, which contributed to its greatness. Caesar fails to see this. He is willing stunt the development of his citizens due to his own self-righteousness. He is nothing more than a godhead over a brittle collection of savages and disparate warlords who don't even share the same knowledge or passion for his ideology. He can't build a nation out of that.

The only things of note that made me interested in Caesar is that he wants to settle his empire and build his own Rome (Vegas being his prime real estate). I think he also mentions he wants to go to war with the NCR not just to absorb them, but as a challenge between the two ideologies. He wants a clash between the Bear and the Bull, and even if he loses, he hopes that something better than the NCR and the Legion comes out the other side.

[Gillman]

Originally posted by ureaditwrong (xigg/xer):

But if the Legion were to capture New Vegas, they wouldn't need to take slaves anymore, because there would be nothing left to build or conquer.

I heavily doubt they would.

Slavery was always a hard sticking point for anyone trying to steelman the Caesar’s Legion. Trying to talk about how safe it is for caravans or how crime is non-existent if they win (if you take the FPGE mod as canon), can all be countered by “but the slaves” and well, they have a point.

I want to ask about what would happen to the slaves after they are no longer needed as slaves. If they freed them, they would risk a revolt, which would destabilize the empire and cost many lives. Killing them would obviously strip them of any moral superiority and exile would risk the creation of a hostile nation. What would you do?

“ But, as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.”
- Jefferson to John Holmes, (discussing slavery and the Missouri question), April 22, 1820

[zipradox]

I'd never thought I'd see the day where Caesar not the historical figure but the character in fallout new vegas is being compared to hitler

[Ladez]

Originally posted by zipradox:

I'd never thought I'd see the day where Caesar not the historical figure but the character in fallout new vegas is being compared to hitler

Ever heard of Godwin's law?

[mezzicstorm]

Caesar and his Legion were not the good guy. Only evidence needed is Nipton.

[Tribe Reimanen]

Originally posted by mezzicstorm:

Caesar and his Legion were not the good guy. Only evidence needed is Nipton.

And the "good guy" according to you is?

[mezzicstorm]

There are none, but NCR is closest, They don't have slavery. Personally I'd like factions to be town specific, like Goodsprings and Prim kinda have it. House and Yes Man are who they are, the Enclave Remnants aren't really a thing, and there isn't much to the Boomers. I'dd go with town-specific reps or the NCR given what plays out during the game.

[ureaditwrong]

Originally posted by mezzicstorm:

Caesar and his Legion were not the good guy. Only evidence needed is Nipton.

Nipton was supposedly a Powder Ganger town though, so the Legion did nothing wrong

[mezzicstorm]

Originally posted by ureaditwrong (xigg/xer):

Originally posted by mezzicstorm:

Caesar and his Legion were not the good guy. Only evidence needed is Nipton.

Nipton was supposedly a Powder Ganger town though, so the Legion did nothing wrong

Doesn't matter, and doesn't change the fact they murdered an entire town for no reason.