is killing ulysses wrong?

[i like swords]

personally. I don't think so. for starters. his possibly biggest sin, bringing the legion to the Mojave. he's the one who informed Caesar of hoover dam. meaning that every crime that the legion committed to the mojave wouldn't have happened if not for him. and then there's the white legs. he's the one who supplied them with the 45 auto smgs. and with a fake promise of the white legs joining the legion if they do what caesar wants. and if you know Ulysses backstory. this makes it even worse. as he's pulling the same lie that got his tribe. the twisted hairs. destroyed by the legion. the same lie that scumbag Vulpes pulled. get them to do what caesar wants with a lie. then destroy and assimilate them. and there's the events of lonesome road. he's essentially destroying both ncr and legion just for a freaking dice roll. there's no guarantee that something better will come from it. hell. there's a good chance that something even worse will come from it. but that's my opinion. what do you guys think.

[Tribe Reimanen]

First to address your points:

1. "meaning that every crime that the legion committed to the mojave wouldn't have happened if not for him."
- Untrue, Caesar had many scouts and if Ulysses didnt find the dam some other scout would. To say if Ulysses didnt find the dam that Caesar wouldnt have know about it is just dumb.

2. "and then there's the white legs"
- He deeply regrets helping the White Legs so that accounts for something.

3. "he's essentially destroying both ncr and legion just for a freaking dice roll. there's no guarantee that something better will come from it"
- The war will happen nonetheless. Hes hastening the process. To fire the nukes or to disarm them basically holds the same end result. This is also ingrained into FNV's Philosophy: War never changes. War will happen, following this will be short peace, and sooner or later somebody will want somebody dead anyway. You can see this in an optimistic or pessimistic way:

Pessimistic: Nothing matters and we are stuck in an inveitable loop of death and destruction.
Optimistic: The short period of true peace is worth fighting for.

My Conclusion:

I think hes by far one of the most hopefull people in the wastes and he really stands for something greater deep within his heart. Hes overall there for the greater good and i really like him for that.

On a side note, please formulate better sentences. Not meant in a mean way.

[Mechenyi]

I always kill him because he's an annoying, pretentious nerd and tries to act like the Courier is responsible for the divide. I mean I love Lonesome Road, but the dude is literally an assassin for the legion(and going by his logic, is far more responsible for the massacre of nipton) and he pulls that annoying "but who's the REAL bad guy HMMMM??" ♥♥♥♥... it's just stupid.

It's funny that Caesar was written to be an almost comically evil midwit, but he's somehow way easier to sympathize and agree with than the character that was written from the first DLC to be some morally complex anti-villain that you're supposed to feel conflicted about during the confrontation.

I only wish we got an option to tie him to the nuke that hits dry wells.

[Tribe Reimanen]

Originally posted by Yurodivyi:

I always kill him because he's an annoying, pretentious nerd and tries to act like the Courier is responsible for the divide. I mean I love Lonesome Road, but the dude is literally an assassin for the legion(and going by his logic, is far more responsible for the massacre of nipton) and he pulls that annoying "but who's the REAL bad guy HMMMM??" ♥♥♥♥... it's just stupid.

It's funny that Caesar was written to be an almost comically evil midwit, but he's somehow way easier to sympathize and agree with than the character that was written from the first DLC to be some morally complex anti-villain that you're supposed to feel conflicted about during the confrontation.

I only wish we got an option to tie him to the nuke that hits dry wells.

Youre not evil for nuking Hopeville, youre evil for not understanding the consequences of your actions - which in this case meant destroying a potential new nation and killing hundereds of people. Hes not an assassin, dont know where you got that from.

Second part is an opinion. I think hes easy to sympathise with. If you understand the Philosophy of the game you can understand hes one of the only hopefull people in the wasteland

[Mechenyi]

Also, I really hate how he's written. The dialogue referencing him, as well as his own dialogue in OWB and LR. It's hard to explain, but the almost mythical way he's talked about by DLC characters, and the weird contracted(?) way he speaks is very "OC donut steel", and makes me want to bash his skull in with his stupid ass flag pole.

[Tribe Reimanen]

Originally posted by Yurodivyi:

Also, I really hate how he's written. The dialogue referencing him, as well as his own dialogue in OWB and LR. It's hard to explain, but the almost mythical way he's talked about by DLC characters, and the weird contracted(?) way he speaks is very "OC donut steel", and makes me want to bash his skull in with his stupid ass flag pole.

Normal dialogue would have been boring, and the Prophetic way he is envisioned in the other DLC's is incredibly important for the true plot of Fallout New Vegas which is "The Courier"

[psychotron666]

He's trying to nuke the capital cities of the two nations killing thousands of innocents in the process. Yeah he's a bad guy

[Mennan]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

He's trying to nuke the capital cities of the two nations killing thousands of innocents in the process. Yeah he's a bad guy

He's not nuking the capitals. He's just nuking the Long 15 so the NCR looses the Mojave battle and he hopes that Caesar will destroy the NCR.
He however also expects the Legion to collapse after Caesars death.

He doesn't believe in the Legion but he absolutely hates the NCR.

[Mofuji]

He's the worst Chris Avellone mouthpiece character.

[JediKnightSky]

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

First to address your points:

1. "meaning that every crime that the legion committed to the mojave wouldn't have happened if not for him."
- Untrue, Caesar had many scouts and if Ulysses didnt find the dam some other scout would. To say if Ulysses didnt find the dam that Caesar wouldnt have know about it is just dumb.

2. "and then there's the white legs"
- He deeply regrets helping the White Legs so that accounts for something.

3. "he's essentially destroying both ncr and legion just for a freaking dice roll. there's no guarantee that something better will come from it"
- The war will happen nonetheless. Hes hastening the process. To fire the nukes or to disarm them basically holds the same end result. This is also ingrained into FNV's Philosophy: War never changes. War will happen, following this will be short peace, and sooner or later somebody will want somebody dead anyway. You can see this in an optimistic or pessimistic way:

Pessimistic: Nothing matters and we are stuck in an inveitable loop of death and destruction.
Optimistic: The short period of true peace is worth fighting for.

My Conclusion:

I think hes by far one of the most hopefull people in the wastes and he really stands for something greater deep within his heart. Hes overall there for the greater good and i really like him for that.

On a side note, please formulate better sentences. Not meant in a mean way.

Oh man you are one of those types eh. I guess I have to begin with why you invalidate yourself entirely with your post that fails to meet the standards of formal debate and civil discourse.

By hurling an insult at the one you respond to, you commit an act of self dehumanization under the formal rules for Debate going back to the time of ancient Athens. It shows all you are a being first of emotion and not of logic and have no place at any discussion reserved for humans capable of rational thought

[JediKnightSky]

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

Originally posted by Yurodivyi:

Also, I really hate how he's written. The dialogue referencing him, as well as his own dialogue in OWB and LR. It's hard to explain, but the almost mythical way he's talked about by DLC characters, and the weird contracted(?) way he speaks is very "OC donut steel", and makes me want to bash his skull in with his stupid ass flag pole.

Normal dialogue would have been boring, and the Prophetic way he is envisioned in the other DLC's is incredibly important for the true plot of Fallout New Vegas which is "The Courier"

In what way? You seem to want to make a point but are not giving a substantive response. Frankly he is terrible writing and does not even fit in a FO game imo. Talking tribal raccoons and Furry Death Claws in the ranks of the BoS fit better in the world.

U is basically a trite parody of characters like Bane in Nolan's Batman films and the masked leader of the psycho gang in Road Warrior. Comes across as a guy who burned his brain out on Mentats trying to have deep thoughts.

I find his ramblings to be a bunch of empty pseudo intellectual neo political nonsense to be frank. Like the kind of stuff guys who took a few humanities classes while working on their programming skills might write. Oh wait, that is exactly who wrote his lines, go figure.

[JediKnightSky]

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

Originally posted by Yurodivyi:

I always kill him because he's an annoying, pretentious nerd and tries to act like the Courier is responsible for the divide. I mean I love Lonesome Road, but the dude is literally an assassin for the legion(and going by his logic, is far more responsible for the massacre of nipton) and he pulls that annoying "but who's the REAL bad guy HMMMM??" ♥♥♥♥... it's just stupid.

It's funny that Caesar was written to be an almost comically evil midwit, but he's somehow way easier to sympathize and agree with than the character that was written from the first DLC to be some morally complex anti-villain that you're supposed to feel conflicted about during the confrontation.

I only wish we got an option to tie him to the nuke that hits dry wells.

Youre not evil for nuking Hopeville, youre evil for not understanding the consequences of your actions - which in this case meant destroying a potential new nation and killing hundereds of people. Hes not an assassin, dont know where you got that from.

Second part is an opinion. I think hes easy to sympathise with. If you understand the Philosophy of the game you can understand hes one of the only hopefull people in the wasteland

What do you mean one of the only hopeful people? Because that statement makes no sense to anyone who has played the franchise. Hope is everywhere. Literally the first quest in the first game, going out to find the water chip is a quest fueled by hope. Hope is everywhere in the wasteland.

[Tribe Reimanen]

Originally posted by JediKnightSky:

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

First to address your points:

1. "meaning that every crime that the legion committed to the mojave wouldn't have happened if not for him."
- Untrue, Caesar had many scouts and if Ulysses didnt find the dam some other scout would. To say if Ulysses didnt find the dam that Caesar wouldnt have know about it is just dumb.

2. "and then there's the white legs"
- He deeply regrets helping the White Legs so that accounts for something.

3. "he's essentially destroying both ncr and legion just for a freaking dice roll. there's no guarantee that something better will come from it"
- The war will happen nonetheless. Hes hastening the process. To fire the nukes or to disarm them basically holds the same end result. This is also ingrained into FNV's Philosophy: War never changes. War will happen, following this will be short peace, and sooner or later somebody will want somebody dead anyway. You can see this in an optimistic or pessimistic way:

Pessimistic: Nothing matters and we are stuck in an inveitable loop of death and destruction.
Optimistic: The short period of true peace is worth fighting for.

My Conclusion:

I think hes by far one of the most hopefull people in the wastes and he really stands for something greater deep within his heart. Hes overall there for the greater good and i really like him for that.

On a side note, please formulate better sentences. Not meant in a mean way.

Oh man you are one of those types eh. I guess I have to begin with why you invalidate yourself entirely with your post that fails to meet the standards of formal debate and civil discourse.

By hurling an insult at the one you respond to, you commit an act of self dehumanization under the formal rules for Debate going back to the time of ancient Athens. It shows all you are a being first of emotion and not of logic and have no place at any discussion reserved for humans capable of rational thought

Not sure how i insult him, if you mean the "Formulate better sentances" part, i literally stated i dont mean it in a mean way. Its just hard to read his post.

Originally posted by JediKnightSky:

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

Normal dialogue would have been boring, and the Prophetic way he is envisioned in the other DLC's is incredibly important for the true plot of Fallout New Vegas which is "The Courier"

In what way? You seem to want to make a point but are not giving a substantive response. Frankly he is terrible writing and does not even fit in a FO game imo. Talking tribal raccoons and Furry Death Claws in the ranks of the BoS fit better in the world.

U is basically a trite parody of characters like Bane in Nolan's Batman films and the masked leader of the psycho gang in Road Warrior. Comes across as a guy who burned his brain out on Mentats trying to have deep thoughts.

I find his ramblings to be a bunch of empty pseudo intellectual neo political nonsense to be frank. Like the kind of stuff guys who took a few humanities classes while working on their programming skills might write. Oh wait, that is exactly who wrote his lines, go figure.

In the way that he is spoken about in very shrouded ways. We are told about some of his skills and his personality, but we are unable to actually draw apicture of who he could be. Second and third part is just your opinion, just like i had mine. Guess we just have our differences there.

Originally posted by JediKnightSky:

Originally posted by ✪Reimanen:

Youre not evil for nuking Hopeville, youre evil for not understanding the consequences of your actions - which in this case meant destroying a potential new nation and killing hundereds of people. Hes not an assassin, dont know where you got that from.

Second part is an opinion. I think hes easy to sympathise with. If you understand the Philosophy of the game you can understand hes one of the only hopefull people in the wasteland

What do you mean one of the only hopeful people? Because that statement makes no sense to anyone who has played the franchise. Hope is everywhere. Literally the first quest in the first game, going out to find the water chip is a quest fueled by hope. Hope is everywhere in the wasteland.

I find him (One of) the only hopefull persons out of all the Tribe / Faction leaders. He invisions a nation that is truely different to all others we have seen in the Fallout Universe.

[Vali Riversong]

I usually kill him. He's quite frankly, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insane. He's trying to justify using a nuclear bomb after spending his entire life living in a world that clearly shows why nuclear bombs were a bad idea to have used. He argues a lot that the NCR destroying Hope Ville and thus a nation is something he considers reprehensible, but he himself has directly contributed to the Legion doing that as well, and him regretting it and feeling bad does not absolve him of that whatsoever, nor does it really even count for something.

[Valden21]

He's also misblaming the Courier as being the sole source of Hopeville's destruction. While the Courier DID carry the package there, and owns the blame for that, that's ALL that can be placed on the Courier's shoulders. There's no evidence to suggest that the Courier knew what the package was. If anything, the information available on the wiki indicates that it was the Enclave who have the ultimate responsibility here, as they were the ones who built the device in the first place.

[the BIG sloppy]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

He's trying to nuke the capital cities of the two nations killing thousands of innocents in the process. Yeah he's a bad guy

"Ya can't change peoples' minds by blowin' them up"

Even so - I never realized people thought he could be a good person? I mean. . . I don't even know half of the backstory lore stuff but trying to pressure me into blowing up a nuclear bomb to kill hundreds, if not thousands, is certainly not good behavior!

I don't care what he's peddling??? That's unreasonable. Maybe he's not downright super duper anime super villain evil... (Although I'd qualify that with the destruction he's bringing!) But, regardless of what points good or bad; most would consider cold blooded murder bad. And - dropping a nuke is pretty cold blooded that's a lot of corpses.

Let's not forget the fun quote, "the death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic" so even if someone doesn't like the NCR, for example... Its good to try and remember that we are dealing with PEOPLE at the end of the day! so blowing people up is never ok! At least... In my book. Even if it can be pretty fun to do, in games!