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deadsea Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:47am
Is Caesar's legion evil?
I've seen crucifixions and stuff but i don't think they are evil. I think caesar is a chill guy.:steammocking:
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Originally posted by Lord Tyrian:
The Legion is not "evil", besides, it is not that simple. Factions in New Vegas are much more ambiguous, especially compared to some of the more clear-cut good & bad guys in Fallout 3 & 4. If you're looking for a strawman villain to shoot at, you won't find it here (even though I suspect the Legion is somewhat intended to be strawmen, but it's nothing like the Enclave in Fallout 3).

Caesar himself is said by J.E. Sawyer to intentionally be "a very dark grey" morally. Fallout: New Vegas isn't a black-and-white affair, the side you choose depends on whichever side suits your perspective on societal issues the most. That's why it's nice to hear players talking about their allegiance with a faction, and justifying it. It sparks debate; you won't find anything this thought-provoking in FO3 & 4.

So in case you wanna hear my justification...

Using brutal force against your enemies is not evil per se. All's fair in love and war. NCR troopers are soldiers, they knew the risks when they enlisted. Meanwhile, Nipton was a town full of scumbags; NCR sniper Ghost said about Nipton "Town's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, deserving to get burned". Vulpes irradiating Searchlight is a controversial action even within the Legion itself; Legate Lanius condemns it, he hates trickery and thus he also disapproves of the Omerta's plan to gas bomb New Vegas during the Battle of Hoover Dam. He considers it to be a dishonorable method of attaining a victory status over enemies.

The Legion does practice slavery, but they do keep their people (including slaves) safe from raiders, while wastelanders in NCR territory have to worry about raiders on a daily basis. Cass's caravan was burned to ash in the vicinity of Camp McCarran, during DAYTIME. How the hell did that happen? That's like someone getting mugged in front of the White House. You cannot justify such profligacy.

Sometimes evil can only exist because people allow evil to exist. The Legion enacts justice upon the wicked at any opportunity. Though as the saying goes, "They who fight monsters should take care, lest they themselves become monsters". The Legion's barbaric behaviour is usually inflicted upon those who're barbaric themselves. Morally wrong? Maybe, but it does put an end to such criminals. You're ending the life of a dangerous person in order to save dozens of innocent lives in the future.

I don't enjoy brutality but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Not everyone deserves mercy. For example, remember Clanden from Gomorrah? He deserves to die, he's pure scum. If you let him live, there's the implication he flees elsewhere to continue his serial killing ways. Sometimes forgiveness is the less moral option, sometimes justice must be done.

If you must know, while I admire many aspects of the Legion, at the same time I don't actually hate the NCR, or House. Each major faction has their own initially well-intentioned agenda, but an ideology without flaws doesn't exist. This is why Caesar brought up Hegelian dialectics; two sides collide and once the dust is settled, ideas will merge into one, attempting to dismiss the flaws of both. Caesar actually doesn't like the current state of the Legion, he hopes that by capturing New Vegas, his Legion will be able to transition into something better, something less barbaric.
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malkuth Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:48am 
Ave

#1
ThePlagued Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:50am 
He's not evil, imo. but many other people would tell you different.
#2
Vita, Mortis, Careo Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:56am 
Caesar's Legion is a texbook example of a lawful evil society. There are laws and norms that are strictly enforced, the purpose of which are to draw power, wealth and influence up the pyramid to the society's leadership. In this case, that's Caesar himself. The Legion exists only to serve him, his ends and his will. Everything and everyone else is expendable. An individual's worth is on so much as he is able to contribute to the goals of the leadership, and once that individual is no longer able to do so he has no worth. As such, the individual has no right outside of doing exactly what they are told.

Life under Legion rule is relatively peaceful so long as the laws and norms of society are followed to the letter. Should that not be the case then punishment is swift and severe. Rule of law is not accomplished through consensus, but rather through fear and coercion. Although society is stable it does not serve the individual's best interest. This is the essence of lawful evil.
Last edited by Vita, Mortis, Careo; Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:58am
#3
Zeno Apr 5, 2016 @ 10:02am 
Despite the fact that I highly disagree with a lot of the things the Legion does (i.e. slavery, rape, etc.), I don't think it's wholly evil. If you actually talk to Caesar, what he says makes sense; individuality and corruption played a major part in the destruction of the Pre-War world, and as of now, the brahmin barons apparently have a great deal of say in NCR politics. With the Legion, everyone knows who's in charge, and swift and severe punishment is dealt to those who perpetuate corruption or deviation from Caesar's ideology. Caesar's Legion is, as the man himself describes it, long-term survival at all costs. The problem is that one of the major reasons this works is because of Caesar himself; very few people could fill his shoes after he dies, and I don't think even Lanius would fit the bill. It helps, though, that Caesar actually does mention that he himself doesn't think the Legion can maintain its strict collectivism forever. He advocates Hegelian dialectics, in which the NCR and Legion cultures would clash, and the best of both of them would emerge. My vision of this would be a society that allows individuality but crushes corruption with impunity, which doesn't actually sound so bad, at least in theory.

Again, I don't condone the Legion's methods, but I have to say that I prefer its ideology over the NCR's, for the most part.
Last edited by Zeno; Apr 5, 2016 @ 10:02am
#4
Dosbilliam, Boring but Practical Apr 5, 2016 @ 11:15pm 
Originally posted by Vita, Mortis, Careo:
Caesar's Legion is a texbook example of a lawful evil society.

I'd say more Lawful Stupid with a swing towards Stupid Evil so hard even the Church of Eternal Fire is wondering what the hell they're doing.
#5
skyking Apr 5, 2016 @ 11:42pm 
True to Caesar.
#6
ThePlagued Apr 5, 2016 @ 11:43pm 
Originally posted by Dosbilliam, The Pragmatic One:
Originally posted by Vita, Mortis, Careo:
Caesar's Legion is a texbook example of a lawful evil society.

I'd say more Lawful Stupid with a swing towards Stupid Evil so hard even the Church of Eternal Fire is wondering what the hell they're doing.
Someone's a little salty, both in taste and emotional state.
#7
Dosbilliam, Boring but Practical Apr 5, 2016 @ 11:48pm 
Originally posted by ThePlagued:
Originally posted by Dosbilliam, The Pragmatic One:

I'd say more Lawful Stupid with a swing towards Stupid Evil so hard even the Church of Eternal Fire is wondering what the hell they're doing.
Someone's a little salty, both in taste and emotional state.

Amazingly, not at this time. It's more an accurate assumption of their morality (something I understand more than the average person yet still condemn due to unneeded brutality) along with a reference to The Witcher thrown in for giggles.
#8
Straybow Apr 6, 2016 @ 1:51am 
Originally posted by Squid:
I prefer the NCR's ideology far more than the Legion. I don't see how anyone could prefer the Legion realistically, you would rather live in a technology shunning totalitarian state, trying to recreate an old society when life sucked for the most part?

Legion lands might disintegrate into a more traditional slave owning aristocracy.

Hound of the Caesar rather than the king of hounds.

The elite in the republic are already beginning to solidify their positions. Maybe shaking the world up a bit, having Brahmin barons and their plutocratic friends 'hanging' out on the I5 might provide some useful opportunities in the wake of the legions disintegration.

All self-interested motivations, ya.
#9
Zeno Apr 6, 2016 @ 6:25am 
Originally posted by Lysimarkos:
The elite in the republic are already beginning to solidify their positions. Maybe shaking the world up a bit, having Brahmin barons and their plutocratic friends 'hanging' out on the I5 might provide some useful opportunities in the wake of the legions disintegration.

As a Communist, I find this appealing, and the corruption in the NCR is one of the reasons why I support the Legion's ideology (and more specifically, Caesar's vision of where it'll go). The NCR just wants to essentially recreate the Pre-War era, or at least it seems that way to me. They model themselves after the Pre-War government. If you want to see how well that worked in the Fallout universe, walk outside and take a look around.
#10
Straybow Apr 6, 2016 @ 6:55am 
Originally posted by Zeno:

As a Communist, I find this appealing, and the corruption in the NCR is one of the reasons why I support the Legion's ideology (and more specifically, Caesar's vision of where it'll go). The NCR just wants to essentially recreate the Pre-War era, or at least it seems that way to me. They model themselves after the Pre-War government. If you want to see how well that worked in the Fallout universe, walk outside and take a look around.

In that particular comment I was suggesting opening up some space within the NCRs ruling class rather than any sort of fundamental structural change. Still I suppose using the Legion to further a characters own alternate ideological agenda works just as well as a motivation. Either way certain opportunities can emerge if the Legion were victorious :)
#11
Vita, Mortis, Careo Apr 6, 2016 @ 8:14am 
Originally posted by Zeno:
Originally posted by Lysimarkos:
The elite in the republic are already beginning to solidify their positions. Maybe shaking the world up a bit, having Brahmin barons and their plutocratic friends 'hanging' out on the I5 might provide some useful opportunities in the wake of the legions disintegration.

As a Communist, I find this appealing, and the corruption in the NCR is one of the reasons why I support the Legion's ideology (and more specifically, Caesar's vision of where it'll go). The NCR just wants to essentially recreate the Pre-War era, or at least it seems that way to me. They model themselves after the Pre-War government. If you want to see how well that worked in the Fallout universe, walk outside and take a look around.

So you'd want to have sort of Lanius' 5-year plan.
#12
Cuddles Apr 6, 2016 @ 8:51am 
Does any civilization consider itself evil? Were the Romans Evil in their own eyes? Is ISIS evil to its followers? I think history decides who is evil and who is good. Some days I am evil :steamfacepalm:
#13
Vita, Mortis, Careo Apr 6, 2016 @ 8:55am 
Originally posted by DarkHairedBeauty:
Does any civilization consider itself evil? Were the Romans Evil in their own eyes? Is ISIS evil to its followers? I think history decides who is evil and who is good. Some days I am evil :steamfacepalm:

Roleplaying games do not aim to simulate reality. Alignments and labels are, therefore, very useful when pushing dramatic action.
#14
Zeno Apr 6, 2016 @ 9:35am 
Originally posted by Lysimarkos:
Originally posted by Zeno:

As a Communist, I find this appealing, and the corruption in the NCR is one of the reasons why I support the Legion's ideology (and more specifically, Caesar's vision of where it'll go). The NCR just wants to essentially recreate the Pre-War era, or at least it seems that way to me. They model themselves after the Pre-War government. If you want to see how well that worked in the Fallout universe, walk outside and take a look around.

In that particular comment I was suggesting opening up some space within the NCRs ruling class rather than any sort of fundamental structural change. Still I suppose using the Legion to further a characters own alternate ideological agenda works just as well as a motivation. Either way certain opportunities can emerge if the Legion were victorious :)

Indeed, they can ;)

Originally posted by Vita, Mortis, Careo:
Originally posted by Zeno:

As a Communist, I find this appealing, and the corruption in the NCR is one of the reasons why I support the Legion's ideology (and more specifically, Caesar's vision of where it'll go). The NCR just wants to essentially recreate the Pre-War era, or at least it seems that way to me. They model themselves after the Pre-War government. If you want to see how well that worked in the Fallout universe, walk outside and take a look around.

So you'd want to have sort of Lanius' 5-year plan.

Actually, I wouldn't want Lanius to take over the Legion. He's even more brutal than Caesar, but some of the actions he takes in the end (if one chooses to play that route) are haphazard and reveal that he doesn't have the discipline to be a good leader for the Legion. He'd definitely stomp out corruption, but he'd want to keep the Legion exactly the way it is. Caesar is more realistic than that.
#15
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Date Posted: Apr 5, 2016 @ 7:47am
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