Hot take: combat is better here in new vegas than in Fallout 4

[Cosmic Pair O Docks]

I don't know about you, but to me FO4 lacks balance. You're either crazy OP giving the combat no weight or struggling to fight an enemy forcing you to take dozens of stimpaks and other items to power through the fight. Discuss.

[psychotron666420]

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

引用自 Shiroi Ren：

Well... You can get Holorifle for free in Sierra Madre... After it, all is trivial.

The real problem with Dead Money from a balance perspective is the gold bars you can take with you at the end of the dlc are worth enough to buy all the gun runners arsenal several times over. That being said, imho the sound design in NV in terms of the guns is better than FO4 as well, and good sound design goes a surprisingly long way to make a combat system feel good

The gold bars aren't even the problem, as you're not meant to take all of them.

But the gold bars are secondary, you can leave with over 200k pre war money with no weight (worth 12 caps a pop if you have full barter).

[psychotron666420]

引用自 Johnny Casey：

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Saying repair is useless doesn't make any sense. Higher repair=more durability restored when you repair the weapon. This applies to weapon repair kits too. This is a perfectly fine system and even if it were broken, repair skill checks are still a thing making the skill even more useful.

All you need is either lots of spare copy of weapons or repair kits, and you never have to worry about item's health ever again. It makes the investment into skill meaningless. Why bother raising the repair skill when I can just find any spare copies of weapons and use them to repair its condition to maximum?

Also, don't bring that 'skill check' into this. We're on about the 'combat' exclusively, remember?

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Your framing of the weapon tier system is dishonest. Even though the hunting rifle does more damage than the sniper rifle, the sniper rifle is a better weapon because it has a higher chance to crit.

It should be better on EVERY aspects, since it's a higher tier weapon.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Skill requirements affect the accuracy of weapons. I don't know how it works exactly but I've definitely noticed it happens when the guns requirement isnt being met.

No, it doesn't. Only strength requirement applies penalty to players' spread if they do not meet the requirement. Read this article[geckwiki.com] on GECK wiki.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Lastly, New Vegas does absolutely have combat heavy situations. Every fight with deathclaws or groups of cazadores, destroying the brotherhood of steel, legion raid parties and the robo-scorpions in big mountain will all put any OP build a player may have into context

It does have combat heavy situations. The point being those are very rare. You only get to meet deathclaws or cazadores if you decided to choose the path that specifically spawn those creatures, you only have to fight the BoS or the Legionnaires if you ever decided to go up against them. Those are all entirely optional and happens only once in a while, whereas in DC or Boston, pretty much every single beings will try to kill relentlessly. For the most time in NV, it's just filled with geckos and raiders with crappy weapons/armors.

That link you posted to the equation literally has "weapon's required skill" as the last example of what effects spread.

If you notice all the weapons in new Vegas also have a required skill. For example the anti material rifle has a required skill of 100.

And disagree that a "higher tier" weapon should be better in every way. This is an RPG meant to simulate, having game-ey gun tiers where tier 3 are better than tier 2 in every way is against the very core of the game. Thats also not how guns work in real life, all guns have different pro and cons

[Cosmic Pair O Docks]

引用自 Johnny Casey：

All you need is either lots of spare copy of weapons or repair kits, and you never have to worry about item's health ever again. It makes the investment into skill meaningless. Why bother raising the repair skill when I can just find any spare copies of weapons and use them to repair its condition to maximum?

You have to actually aquire several copies of whichever weapon you're using. This does not happen naturally in gameplay unless you specifically choose to look for it and know where to find copies or buy copies off of merchants. Weapon repair kits are fairly common as well, but still not enough that you can keep all your weapons pristine throughout the whole game.

引用自 Johnny Casey：

Also, don't bring that 'skill check' into this. We're on about the 'combat' exclusively, remember?

This is actually a good point. I'll add to it by saying repair barely has any effect on combat and shouldn't have been brought up in the first place

引用自 Johnny Casey：

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Your framing of the weapon tier system is dishonest. Even though the hunting rifle does more damage than the sniper rifle, the sniper rifle is a better weapon because it has a higher chance to crit.

It should be better on EVERY aspects, since it's a higher tier weapon.

You have no basis for this. A better weapon is a better weapon. Who tf even cares about weapon tiers? Just use the weapon you want to use or think is best, since apparently skill requirements mean nothing.

引用自 Johnny Casey：

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Lastly, New Vegas does absolutely have combat heavy situations. Every fight with deathclaws or groups of cazadores, destroying the brotherhood of steel, legion raid parties and the robo-scorpions in big mountain will all put any OP build a player may have into context

It does have combat heavy situations. The point being those are very rare. You only get to meet deathclaws or cazadores if you decided to choose the path that specifically spawn those creatures, you only have to fight the BoS or the Legionnaires if you ever decided to go up against them. Those are all entirely optional and happens only once in a while, whereas in DC or Boston, pretty much every single beings will try to kill relentlessly. For the most time in NV, it's just filled with geckos and raiders with crappy weapons/armors.

The fact that it's a choice to engage in combat heavy situations says nothing about the quantity of combat heavy encounters in the actual game. It's also factually wrong that the BOS is optional, because they have their own quest in the main story and two of the main factions require you to kill them. Even more so, siding with the legion will make all ranger outposts attack you if you get too close, and killing mr house requires you to fight a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of super powerful robots. Theres also the super mutants at Black mountain, where one is shooting rockets at you. You're just wrong about the game not having enough difficult fights; it has plenty for what it is.

引用自 Johnny Casey：

Now, I'd be really appreciated if you make your own point about how exactly NV is "better" in terms of combat, especially on the balance department, compare to Fallout 4.

Fallout 4 gives you a power armor and a minigun at the very start of the game. The game has enough fusion cores that a few hours in you can be in your power armor all of the time. Unless you build your character to receive as few bonuses as possible from how you invest your skill points, its impossible to not be an unstoppable, overpowered monster who can easily kill any enemy by the end of the game. It hands out legendary weapons like candy too. But even beyond the balancing issues, so few weapons are actually unique because every weapon can be modified to all hell. This makes all the weapons have no identity, and I KNOW you aren't about to be defending the travesty that is pipe weapons.

[Johnny Casey]

引用自 psychotron666420：

That link you posted to the equation literally has "weapon's required skill" as the last example of what effects spread.

If you notice all the weapons in new Vegas also have a required skill. For example the anti material rifle has a required skill of 100.

fWeapSkillReqPenalty does not appear to have any effect in vanilla game, its use in the skill requirement formula somehow usurped by fWeapStrengthReqPenalty. This was fixed in JohnnyGuitar NVSE 3.45.

引用自 psychotron666420：

And disagree that a "higher tier" weapon should be better in every way. This is an RPG meant to simulate, having game-ey gun tiers where tier 3 are better than tier 2 in every way is against the very core of the game. Thats also not how guns work in real life, all guns have different pro and cons

Yeah, you keep on that "core RPG element" and "how firearms work in real-life" stuff. I'm not even gonna argue about it.

[psychotron666420]

引用自 Johnny Casey：

引用自 psychotron666420：

That link you posted to the equation literally has "weapon's required skill" as the last example of what effects spread.

If you notice all the weapons in new Vegas also have a required skill. For example the anti material rifle has a required skill of 100.

fWeapSkillReqPenalty does not appear to have any effect in vanilla game, its use in the skill requirement formula somehow usurped by fWeapStrengthReqPenalty. This was fixed in JohnnyGuitar NVSE 3.45.

引用自 psychotron666420：

And disagree that a "higher tier" weapon should be better in every way. This is an RPG meant to simulate, having game-ey gun tiers where tier 3 are better than tier 2 in every way is against the very core of the game. Thats also not how guns work in real life, all guns have different pro and cons

Yeah, you keep on that "core RPG element" and "how firearms work in real-life" stuff. I'm not even gonna argue about it.

So a bug, that has since been fixed with a plugin most use.

And I'm just saying I prefer a system where guns all have different pros and cons and I can use a "lower tier" gun for most of the game, using ammo types to adjust and extend that use further, not a tiered system where all tier 3 weapons are better in every way than tier 2 weapons and there's no point in using the tier 2 once you find tier 3. That's way too game-ey for me and way too linear of progression for an RPG experience imo.

[Johnny Casey]

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Fallout 4 gives you a power armor and a minigun (...)

I said to enlighten me why the combat in NV is better, not why the combat in Fallout 4 is bad. Please read.

[Cosmic Pair O Docks]

引用自 Johnny Casey：

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

Fallout 4 gives you a power armor and a minigun (...)

I said to enlighten me why the combat in NV is better, not why the combat in Fallout 4 is bad. Please read.

引用自 Johnny Casey：

Now, I'd be really appreciated if you make your own point about how exactly NV is "better" in terms of combat, especially on the balance department, compare to Fallout 4.

You asked why it was better than Fallout 4 in terms of balance. I have explained why Fallout 4 is poorly balanced. The onus is on you to explain why New Vegas is even less balanced (which you can't do because it's not. What am I supposed to say about a game that is balanced well?) I would prefer however if you just stopped being a part of this discussion, because your arguments are terrible.

[Johnny Casey]

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

You have to actually aquire several copies of whichever weapon you're using.

And you're good to go. That's what makes the repair system awful. It makes the repair skill - which is for maintaining your weapons in better condition in case of any upcoming battle - irrelevant, as having multiple copies of weapons or repair kits obsoletes the needs to increase this skill.

In Fallout 3, not only you need to have multiple copies of weapons to maintain your weapons, but you also need to have higher repair skill in order to keep your weapons in good condition. This was a perfectly fine system which Obsidian somehow decided to change it so that the players are not limited to how high they can repair based on their repair skill. That's the issue with repair system in NV, and it's the reason why JIP LN NVSE plugin has an option to enable Fallout 3 repair system, because NV one is so bad.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

I'll add to it by saying repair barely has any effect on combat and shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

It barely has any effect on combat because how Obsidian decided to do with the repair system. Had the repair system un-touched and left alone the same way as it was in Fallout 3, repair skill would impacted on much higher degree on combat aspects, as in order to deal highest dmg possible for the longest time being, you HAVE to raise your repair skill to repair the item at maximum possible condition by yourself.

You just helped me proving how NV butchered the repair system so it would mean nothing in terms of combat.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

You have no basis for this. A better weapon is a better weapon. Who tf even cares about weapon tiers? Just use the weapon you want to use or think is best, since apparently skill requirements mean nothing.

That's what I mean by the weapon tier system is messed up. Sniper Rifle should supposedly be better than Hunting Rifle according to the tier system that the developers have put into their game, but in actual game, it's not. They made the skill requirements for weapons in a mindset of expecting more experienced, leveled players will use the higher grade of weapons suited for their level, hence why stuff like AMR requires 100 guns skill, and will only appear if the player is past level 20.

Skill requirement being bugged out is a different story. What I'm on about is they couldn't even keep the things they wanted to implement in a consistent way.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

The fact that it's a choice to engage in combat heavy situations says nothing about the quantity of combat heavy encounters in the actual game.

No, because if the players decide to not engage in that area, they will never have to worry about dealing with deathclaws or cazadores, or any other dangerous enemies. They might as well not be in the game.

A selective few situations (which can completely be avoided) that you can count the amount of numbers it can occur in your hands VS the entire section of the map being filled with dangerous enemies ready to kill you. This is what I mean the NV has barely any combat situation.

引用自 A shirt with your face on it：

You asked why it was better than Fallout 4 in terms of balance. I have explained why Fallout 4 is poorly balanced.

...And how does that automatically makes the combat in NV more balanced and better than that of Fallout 4? It could be that both games are equally terrible in terms of combat and its balance, unless you specifically present the case why the combats in NV is better and balanced, which is something I've been asking for you to explain for about three times in a row.

[Salamand3r-]

The difference is that FO4 can be played completely as a shooter very easily, completely ignoring the RPG elements if desired.

NV still applies a very distinct range of penalties and bonuses to the shooting based on stats. It's an RPG with shooting as a mechanic.

FO4, because the shooting was implemented by id (shooter guys, not RPG guys) has a shooter system that exists largely independent of your stats. You shoot something with a scoped rifle, and the bullet goes where your crosshair is pointing.

It's a shooter with concurrent RPG elements, not an RPG with shooting integrated into the RPG system.

As a shooter fan, I prefer FO4's purely shooter-focused gameplay *more* than I enjoy purely shooting things in NV. But, NV has a lot more both tactical and strategic choices that can modify the feel of the shooting, which overall I enjoy even more.

[Johnny Casey]

I'll agree on that all the DLC areas for NV - excluding Dead Money - are well designed for combat heavy situation. They finally did something right about the worldspace being dangerous to venture. But for the Mojave? Not worth to explore.

[ghpstage]

While they had room for improvement, the armour mechanics in NV are vastly superior for two reasons,

First is that they actually work, whereas the central energy vs ballistic dynamic in FO4 doesn't.
The problem with it coming from bonus damage from multipliers and crits helping ballistic overcome armour but not energy, rendering energy increasingly underpowered as you level.

Second is that it doesn't allow weapons to be better against high OR low armoured targets and so lacks the weapons roles that NV DT allows, even before the lack of ammo types.
Were you to compare a bunch of weapons of the same damage type (i.e. 10mm vs combat rifle vs hunting rifle) across a bunch of different DR values the ratio of DAM and DR scores will remain constant in almost all cases, the only exceptions lying in the relatively uncommon cases where DR is overwhelmed.
The end result is extremely similar to FO3s flat % reductions, imposing very hard and linear tiering.

Another poor and bizarre change was applied to suppressors.
Guns equipped with one in FO4 can score an indefinite number of sneak attacks, lasting up till the target(s) enter actual combat... which usually involves physically seeing you.
This allows suppressed guns to bring the entirety of their DPS into sneak attack roles, leaving unsuppressable weapons as well as traditional slow firing (low DPS) sniper weapons completely outclassed.

The only thing I feel that FO4 really did for the better was add cover, the stand in the open style gunfights in FO3 and NV always felt daft.

[Grung The Goblin]

I think fallout 4 is harder at least in early game is a pain considering you have: ♥♥♥♥ health, ♥♥♥♥ ammo and ♥♥♥♥ loot, even when i know the best route to complete the story it still sucks to get into a fight with a raider armed with a pipe pistol and somehow lose half your health bar. in fnv it feels less random and they make sure that your stocked up on ammo and there is always a bed nearby. but no matter how hard they are both fun:)

[riko]

FINALLY someone who get its.

[RACHMANOVSKI]

引用自 ghpstage：

While they had room for improvement, the armour mechanics in NV are vastly superior for two reasons,

First is that they actually work, whereas the central energy vs ballistic dynamic in FO4 doesn't.
The problem with it coming from bonus damage from multipliers and crits helping ballistic overcome armour but not energy, rendering energy increasingly underpowered as you level.

Second is that it doesn't allow weapons to be better against high OR low armoured targets and so lacks the weapons roles that NV DT allows, even before the lack of ammo types.
Were you to compare a bunch of weapons of the same damage type (i.e. 10mm vs combat rifle vs hunting rifle) across a bunch of different DR values the ratio of DAM and DR scores will remain constant in almost all cases, the only exceptions lying in the relatively uncommon cases where DR is overwhelmed.
The end result is extremely similar to FO3s flat % reductions, imposing very hard and linear tiering.

Another poor and bizarre change was applied to suppressors.
Guns equipped with one in FO4 can score an indefinite number of sneak attacks, lasting up till the target(s) enter actual combat... which usually involves physically seeing you.
This allows suppressed guns to bring the entirety of their DPS into sneak attack roles, leaving unsuppressable weapons as well as traditional slow firing (low DPS) sniper weapons completely outclassed.

The only thing I feel that FO4 really did for the better was add cover, the stand in the open style gunfights in FO3 and NV always felt daft.

I think we are all agree in term of mechanics NV is better than 4.

But feels like shid to play.

Also all this calculation about DT/DR is practically shid when you get your hands on Holorifle, or other equally OP weapons, which is fairly easy to get -- I have 19 Energy weapon skills during Puta Madre and it still melt Bullet sponge enemy like the ghost people.

Same case with Fallout 3, where at mid to end point of the game your chinese assault rifle can melt practically everything, or at least one clipped a Deathclaw.

[HappySlapp]

Imho, Fallout New Vegas, despite being my favorite in the franchise (Don't let my 1k+ playtime in FO4 fool you) without mods, has just barely passable combat, while FO4 has decent combat without mods.