Anyone feel like Honest Hearts is offensive how it depicts/treats tribes?

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Facetable

Jul 21, 2021 @ 5:43pm

Anyone feel like Honest Hearts is offensive how it depicts/treats tribes?

Edit:
I went and read Josh's explanation about the original plans for HH and how it didn't release as intended, as well as some more details about the design of the tribes. I don't think that what he described in the post would resolve all the issues with HH (For example, Daniel not being white doesn't resolve all of the stuff with him) though it seems like there was a lot that was supposed to be done for the DLC that wasn't which may at least partially explain its state.
(and again just to restate my knowledge on all this stuff is basically zero/I have no connection to any indigenous culture/group.)

Here's Josh's post for reference:
https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/153313830271/i-keep-seeing-this-criticism-on-tumblr-that

Last edited by Facetable; Jul 22, 2021 @ 11:17am

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Originally posted by Cory in the House:

Except Danny is wrong as the only tribe that originated from the group of runaway children was the Sorrows, and The Sorrows have a conlang even though they're descended from a group of literate children who were raised in some sort of facility, "The Survivalist" Randall Clark even went so far as to give them textbooks on science, medicine and the like to help them survive. The notion that they, a group of literate people who should value and preserve that literacy, would turn into backwards illiterate tribals is a transformation that goes unexplained in-universe and can only be explained by the game design necessity that they had to become rock-banging tribals afraid of caves and wooden shacks in order to let the contents of those caves lie undisturbed for the player to recover.

The Dead Horses are, to me, arguably worse because their conlang is a combination of German and Diné, the Navajo language. Why is it worse? The game and DLC director Josh Sawyer is a noted Germanophile; the logical outcome of the Navajo Nation sheltering a few German tourists in the aftermath of nuclear war is not that the Navajo identity and language would be subsumed by the German tourists', but vice versa. Though almost certainly unintentional, there is a very Euro-centric, colonial "white man's burden" sort of mindset baked into the idea that us Navajos could be so incompetent and so fragile in our cultural identity that we'd need German tourists to guide us through the new post-nuclear world.

JSawyer's Germanophile conquest of the Navajo is one of the worst parts of HH. The notion that the Navajo, a people with a strong cultural/ethnic identity and oral tradition who managed to survive the war would see their language and culture subsumed by the German of a few tourists they deigned to shelter is just maddening to me as a Navajo.
Today's we number around 400,000 and about 100,000 of our tribal members speak Diné bizaad; we're one of, if not the largest extant indigenous societies left in North America. Despite the US military and BIA actively trying to destroy our cultural identity, language, etc. for over a century, we've survived with far more intact than most indigenous peoples can say for themselves.

The notion that we Navajo, of all people, would forget ourselves when Bostonians are running around dressed like colonial militia and the Brotherhood of Steel are, in House's words, "gallivanting around the Mojave like knights of yore," despite being less connected to those histories and cultures than we Navajo people are to our own culture and language, carries a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of racist baggage and it leaves a sick taste in my mouth.

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Showing 1-15 of 63 comments

THEBIGPEPPER has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 6:02pm

It's a video game that came out in 2010 and the DLC came out in 2011, if you want a "woke" game this isn't it bud.

Vex Hilarius has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 6:15pm

The tribals found in 2 and NV definitely have some inspiration from indigenous tribes but in terms of it being offensive I don't see anything to support it.

Who calls them savages? Boomers call everyone that aren't them savages, not just tribes. NCR and Legion call eachother savages but that's all I witnessed. And are you really blurring out that word? Good lord man.

Your opinion of Daniel would be understandable if most players actually chose him. Most see he's just blinded by his religion and all his actions are caused by him wanting to turn the tribals in Mormons. In any case, Obsidian originally wanted Daniel to be Asian and there's a mod that does just that and if you read the comments on the mod page you'll get a more nuanced answer on your "white savior" nonsense.

Last edited by Vex Hilarius; Jul 21, 2021 @ 6:27pm

Brooke

Jul 21, 2021 @ 6:20pm

Idk op, I haven’t gotten to that dlc yet, I’ll keep your question in mind when I do

Vex Hilarius has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 6:44pm

Originally posted by THEBIGPEPPER:
It's a video game that came out in 2010 and the DLC came out in 2011, if you want a "woke" game this isn't it bud.

Id actually argue that this game was more "woke" friendly even before it became a thing people take seriously. There is loads of gay/bi/lesbian characters in this game.

huntinghawk has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 7:29pm

Another Bootless errand

Facetable

Jul 21, 2021 @ 8:40pm

Originally posted by Power Fisting Lesbian:

Id actually argue that this game was more "woke" friendly even before it became a thing people take seriously. There is loads of gay/bi/lesbian characters in this game.

I totally agree that in regards to that representation this game was really progressive and it should be praised for that

I just don’t think that it success in one demographic of representation means that it can’t be analyzed in terms of other rep. For the most part I do think this game did a great job, this is just one area that seemed like it could come across as insensitive - That’s just me though and again I’m super limited on my awareness of this subject.

Last edited by Facetable; Jul 21, 2021 @ 9:01pm

Facetable

Jul 21, 2021 @ 8:57pm

Originally posted by Power Fisting Lesbian:
The tribals found in 2 and NV definitely have some inspiration from indigenous tribes but in terms of it being offensive I don't see anything to support it.

Who calls them savages? Boomers call everyone that aren't them savages, not just tribes. NCR and Legion call eachother savages but that's all I witnessed. And are you really blurring out that word? Good lord man.

Your opinion of Daniel would be understandable if most players actually chose him. Most see he's just blinded by his religion and all his actions are caused by him wanting to turn the tribals in Mormons. In any case, Obsidian originally wanted Daniel to be Asian and there's a mod that does just that and if you read the comments on the mod page you'll get a more nuanced answer on your "white savior" nonsense.

I did not know about the mod or the original intent, and it is true that most players don’t side with him/see his flaws. It still kinda seems like the core of his character revolves around pushing his own perspective onto The Sorrows and still resembles the archetype somewhat though

I think my main issue with him comes mostly from how even if you get Graham to show mercy to Salt-Upon-Wounds, The Sorrow’s still become adversarial to The Dead Horses. It kinda felt like the writing was saying that Daniel was right about The Sorrows losing their “innocence” and that you’re supposed to side with him. That might just be me though and I will continue to stress that my perspective is limited on this stuff

Last edited by Facetable; Jul 22, 2021 @ 12:47am

NightmareGats has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 9:41pm

It's a game, why people want to feel bad about stuff in such things ffs

RequiemsRose has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 10:09pm

I didn't find it all that offensive. In the wasteland pretty much anyone could accurately be described as a savage honestly, being at least capable of savagery is simply a survival tactic in the post-apocalypse. In some ways it's a good trait there, as long as you don't happen to be on the receiving end of their anger.
You also have to consider that these tribal's views were greatly altered by their experiences. Even IRL, we have "cargo cults", tribes of people who were astonished by the technology used in the second world war and the cargo drops they received back then who still worship what they saw in the best ways they could interpret it with their limited understanding of modern society. They make mock military outposts, practice drills, have rituals to attempt to summon more cargo, and yes, different tribes even worship certain soldiers they had interacted with at the time even though those soldiers are now long gone.
It's actually not hard to believe that a few people nuked back into the stone age, especially the sorrows who began as a group of kids surviving the bombs during their field trip, would potentially adopt similar approaches to their tribalism.

Vex Hilarius has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 10:28pm

Originally posted by Facetable:
Originally posted by Power Fisting Lesbian:
The tribals found in 2 and NV definitely have some inspiration from indigenous tribes but in terms of it being offensive I don't see anything to support it.

Who calls them savages? Boomers call everyone that aren't them savages, not just tribes. NCR and Legion call eachother savages but that's all I witnessed. And are you really blurring out that word? Good lord man.

Your opinion of Daniel would be understandable if most players actually chose him. Most see he's just blinded by his religion and all his actions are caused by him wanting to turn the tribals in Mormons. In any case, Obsidian originally wanted Daniel to be Asian and there's a mod that does just that and if you read the comments on the mod page you'll get a more nuanced answer on your "white savior" nonsense.

I did not know about the mod or the original intent, and it is true that most players don’t side with him/see his flaws. It still kinda seems like the core of his character revolving around pushing his own perspective onto The Sorrows still resembles the archetype somewhat though

I think my main issue with him comes mostly from how even if you get Graham to show mercy to Salt-Upon-Wounds, The Sorrow’s still become adversarial to The Dead Horses. It kinda felt like the writing was saying that Daniel was right about The Sorrows losing their “innocence” and that you’re supposed to side with him. That might just be me though and I will continue to stress that my perspective is limited on this stuff

I can see where you're coming from though. I do believe the white savior thing is overdone and can have some racial undertones. But I highly doubt it was Obsidian's intent on doing that. Personally, I always saw it as Daniel was just your average religious nut who felt an obligation of turning "savages" into god-fearing followers. While I do overall enjoy the writing of NV, its not perfect but you can kinda tell when something is written poorly to the point of offensiveness or whatever, but with how well Obsidian handled other topics in this game, such as handling of "lgbt" characters or rape, slavery, I highly doubt they didn't mean to offend anyone.

But you also have to remember this is a game that was written more than a decade ago. It was a different social climate.

#10

^5T^6u^5c^6k^5e^6e^1Z has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 21, 2021 @ 11:18pm

who cares its a game lol

#11

Hoxtalicous has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 22, 2021 @ 1:58am

bait

#12

Mr.Bullshitter has Fallout: New Vegas

Jul 22, 2021 @ 1:59am

Oh boy a twitter ♥♥♥♥ huh? Well sorry to break you but the tribes in Zion aren't real representations of actual tribes and aren't to be taken seriously. Also considering how sensitive you are to the ''savage'' i really don't think you'll like the boomers.

#13