Justifying the Legion, and why they are the best.

[Richard I]

We can dismiss NCR, yes you get the most freedom but that isn't the best thing in a post nuclear world. They are way too overstretched, corrupt, and there is no standard.

Independent New Vegas would be bad too, because the Courier would move on to new adventures, and taking care of the Mojave is an adventure in itself. Mr House is the only single intellect that could handle the Mojave on his own - brain-wise

So it comes down to Mr House or the Legion. Mr House doesnt care about anything except New Vegas and scientific advancement. He wants to colonize other planets before he takes the country. It makes sense, but at the same time the only way to ensure stability on earth is by being the most powerful on earth, not moving a chunk of the power to another planet. Not to mention if someone managed to get into the lucky 38, through bombs or anything, they could easily kill Mr House. It is entirely possible for him to upgrade his security, but it's been 200 years and he hasn't cared to.

Then Caesar. Let's first view the arguments against Caesar. His views on women, slavery, brutality, and that when he dies, the Legion dies. Let's go ahead and get slavery out of the way.

Slavery
They only enslave a percentage of people, and Canyon Runner explains it good: (paraphrased) They did not serve a purpose when they were outside captivity. Yes, they were free, but what is the point of freedom if you arent contributing to anything? At least they serve a purpose as slaves for Caesar. The only slaves were typically from tribals, towns were not brought into slavery.

Slavery is bad, and I believe they should allow the slaves to instead be considered workers, be paid, raise a family, etc. But it's the Mojave, and there is no perfect faction. Slavery is close enough, at least the slaves serve a purpose now.

I dont justify prewar slavery (what actually happened) because those who were taken did serve a purpose. They were working for their communities and providing for their families. In the Mojave, its different.

Treatment of women:
Yeah, I disagree with this point wholeheartedly, but like with prewar America, it probably wont be permanent.

Brutality:
It's a post apocalyptic world. There are all sorts of different factions, and they are all out for blood. Caesar ensures that any part that the Legion occupies, it is safe. You will see NCR caravans destroyed across the Mojave, but you will never see a Caesars Legion caravan destroyed, or a trader that operates within their realm. Legionnaires are much more loyal to their cause than any other faction, minus the traditional BoS, who has just lost all forms of common sense.

Long-term stability:
At this point it is just theories. There are many ways that Legion can survive long term, and many ways it can fall. If Lucius or Vulpes was appointed successor instead of Lanius, it would be possible.

But the main theory for me is that Caesar gets access to a tube like Mr House. The technology is there, Caesar just has to accept it. He is willing to use an auto-doc and other advanced medical equipment on himself, he will at least consider the idea of a long lasting Legion.

A forum post by Rampagingwalrus also helped support this:

The Legion is focused on using renewable resources to rebuild society.
NCR, BoS, and House are all focused on using non-renewable resources to rebuild society.

Depending on non-renewable resources lead to global apocalypse, and it will again, and again, and again. Depending only on renewable resources is the safest, securest, and most logical method to ensure the species' survival. Morals and ethics always come second to straight survival.

The NCR also uses slavery, but they are less open about it being slavery. Forcing people to work in order to survive, due to the economical domination of a select few. Work, or die. Fight, or die. With no personal gain, is slavery.

The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselves.

The NCR, is not. The NCR has to expand, as it is using up its resources faster than it can accumulate them. They cannot even protect their own people from each other, let alone the numerous slaver/raider bands located within their borders.

[=CrimsoN=]

Publicado originalmente por Mad:

The whole Legion part of the game is just stupid. As much as I love this game, Legion part just doesn't make sense.
The only reason why Legion controls as much land as they do is because developers said so. When you actually see how Legion behaves in game (actual combat), one can quickly realize that there's no way they could conquer anything.
You can see their tents from across the lake. Ok? What's stopping ANYONE from lobbing a few mini nukes across the lake and finish them off quickly?
ONE (1) Courier can come into their camp and kill them off, including Ceasar, all by themselves.
The whole "Legion threat" that story tells us about is so overblown, it's incredible.

Maybe there's good side to them, I don't know. I never see any in game and none of the NPCs in the game says "Legion is so awesome! I hope they win!"

Obsidian really dropped the ball with the Legion. They were supposed to be a viable alternative to NCR, maybe authoritarian, but still a viable alternative. None of the actual Legion actions you see in game can make you think that.

A shame really.

Obsidian didn't have enough time to fully flesh out the Legion. So all you really end up seeing are their war camps. Originally it was intended to be able to see some of the Legion's locations, possibly in Arizona.

And tbh not many people support the NCR who are actually in the NCR. Most wastelanders (especially in the small towns) are ambivalent about the whole situation. So its not entirely an NCR lovefest.

[Mad]

Publicado originalmente por Ulysses:

Obsidian didn't have enough time to fully flesh out the Legion. So all you really end up seeing are their war camps. Originally it was intended to be able to see some of the Legion's locations, possibly in Arizona.

And tbh not many people support the NCR who are actually in the NCR. Most wastelanders (especially in the small towns) are ambivalent about the whole situation. So its not entirely an NCR lovefest.

I'm well aware of the lack of time, but even with fleshed out Legion, it doesn't make crucifixion, slavery and rap*ing any more appealing. With the time they had at their disposal, they could use it to make Legion appeal more to players even if it means having them less fleshed out.

[=CrimsoN=]

Publicado originalmente por Mad:

Publicado originalmente por Ulysses:

Obsidian didn't have enough time to fully flesh out the Legion. So all you really end up seeing are their war camps. Originally it was intended to be able to see some of the Legion's locations, possibly in Arizona.

And tbh not many people support the NCR who are actually in the NCR. Most wastelanders (especially in the small towns) are ambivalent about the whole situation. So its not entirely an NCR lovefest.

I'm well aware of the lack of time, but even with fleshed out Legion, it doesn't make crucifixion, slavery and rap*ing any more appealing. With the time they had at their disposal, they could use it to make Legion appeal more to players even if it means having them less fleshed out.

I guess thats what Caesar's speeches are for, but yeah I agree. I imagine that most people just shot the Legion onsight the moment they walked into Nipton.

[=CrimsoN=]

Publicado originalmente por 4240876367:

Expansionism is great when you're spreading civilization.

Even Irl.

Civilization for whom?
As mentioned previously by Franz Duke Ferdiniand. NCR's expansion eastward is akin to the United States early western expansion and the subjugation of various Native American tribes who'd already had well established civilizations (primitive as they may have been).

I see the NCR's expansion similar to that. NCR rolls over everyone, spreading "civilization", whether they want it or not, and the taxation definitely isn't with representation, not when wealthy brahmin barons have near absolute control over the NCR council.

[ProfileName]

Publicado originalmente por Ulysses:

Publicado originalmente por 4240876367:

Expansionism is great when you're spreading civilization.

Even Irl.

Civilization for whom?
As mentioned previously by Franz Duke Ferdiniand. NCR's expansion eastward is akin to the United States early western expansion and the subjugation of various Native American tribes who'd already had well established civilizations (primitive as they may have been).

I see the NCR's expansion similar to that. NCR rolls over everyone, spreading "civilization", whether they want it or not, and the taxation definitely isn't with representation, not when wealthy brahmin barons have near absolute control over the NCR council.

Not to metion the NCR is spread thin many NCR officers will say this and thats why the NCR are having trouble in the Mojave and likley other areas.

[Richard I]

The honest answer is, I dont know who to support. Nobody has been ruled out, after 7 playthroughs I still cant decide.

The NCR is the largest, and are built sort of like the prewar military. But they fail to control their own territory, and consume too much resources for the land they can handle.

(Backlash incoming)
The Legion is the best morality-wise, they do what is right (typically) and when someone does something wrong, they are rightfully punished. As stated before, there are a few things I disagree with, but I can deal with it. The problem with the Legion is lack of technology and long-term stability.

Mr House is a genius, and cares about Vegas. But what of everywhere else? Is it good for one man to have access to everything? Are the securitrons reliable, and will they always be reliable?

And I'm not a fan of independent Vegas. I dont the the Courier could handle that alongside his future endeavors.

[BrightLights]

Publicado originalmente por dias17se:

"They are way too overstretched, corrupt, and there is no standard"

So is the legion.

"Independent New Vegas would be bad too, because the Courier would move on to new adventures, and taking care of the Mojave is an adventure in itself. Mr House is the only single intellect that could handle the Mojave on his own - brain-wise"

No, the securitrons can do it fine, and you conveniently forgot the 3 families.

"So it comes down to Mr House or the Legion"

No, you dismissed the best options and came to this yourself.

"Slavery
They only enslave a percentage of people"

Its only a few people !!!!!!! No one would take you serious after that sentence, have you seen slavery in real life ? You have no clue what you are talking about.

"They did not serve a purpose when they were outside captivity. Yes, they were free, but what is the point of freedom if you arent contributing to anything? "

Who died and left you in charge, so you can decide what people should or not do ?


"Slavery is bad, and I believe they should allow the slaves to instead be considered workers, be paid, raise a family, etc. But it's the Mojave, and there is no perfect faction. Slavery is close enough, at least the slaves serve a purpose now. "

You do know that if the legion dies the pockets of civilization that live fine by working and paying taxes can expand right ? What kind of autism caused you to believe people should be enslaved ?

"It's a post apocalyptic world. There are all sorts of different factions, and they are all out for blood. Caesar ensures that any part that the Legion occupies, it is safe. You will see NCR caravans destroyed across the Mojave, but you will never see a Caesars Legion caravan destroyed, or a trader that operates within their realm. Legionnaires are much more loyal to their cause than any other faction, minus the traditional BoS, who has just lost all forms of common sense."

What game have you played ? Most factions dont want blood.

Ofc legions roads are safe, you wont see no one because they dont want their daughters raped and sold to slavery.


"Long-term stability:
At this point it is just theories. There are many ways that Legion can survive long term, and many ways it can fall. If Lucius or Vulpes was appointed successor instead of Lanius, it would be possible."

Slavery never worked, staline and mao tried it, did a lot of harm and they got thrown, these legion larpers arent going far.


"The Legion is focused on using renewable resources to rebuild society.
NCR, BoS, and House are all focused on using non-renewable resources to rebuild society.

Depending on non-renewable resources lead to global apocalypse, and it will again, and again, and again. Depending only on renewable resources is the safest, securest, and most logical method to ensure the species' survival. Morals and ethics always come second to straight survival."

What are you basing this upon ? Repeat with me, not an argument lol.

"The NCR also uses slavery, but they are less open about it being slavery. Forcing people to work in order to survive, due to the economical domination of a select few. Work, or die. Fight, or die. With no personal gain, is slavery.

The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselve"

How shameful your argumentation, completely dishonest intelectually, the ncr does not, i repeat, does not use slavery, and you are distorting facts.

"The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselves.

The NCR, is not. The NCR has to expand, as it is using up its resources faster than it can accumulate them. They cannot even protect their own people from each other, let alone the numerous slaver/raider bands located within their borders."

The legion has consistently been kicked in the butt, what are you talking about ? They didnt even change a single tactic after the first loss of Hoover dam, same dumbass tactics, the ncr rangers ate them up. Literally all factions but khans (half dozen druggies)are against the legion, like everyone, they are done. The ncr is the government, they always win because of their effective taxations, fresh recruits and superior firepower.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ someone's angry

[=CrimsoN=]

Publicado originalmente por mr funnybones:

Publicado originalmente por dias17se:

"They are way too overstretched, corrupt, and there is no standard"

So is the legion.

"Independent New Vegas would be bad too, because the Courier would move on to new adventures, and taking care of the Mojave is an adventure in itself. Mr House is the only single intellect that could handle the Mojave on his own - brain-wise"

No, the securitrons can do it fine, and you conveniently forgot the 3 families.

"So it comes down to Mr House or the Legion"

No, you dismissed the best options and came to this yourself.

"Slavery
They only enslave a percentage of people"

Its only a few people !!!!!!! No one would take you serious after that sentence, have you seen slavery in real life ? You have no clue what you are talking about.

"They did not serve a purpose when they were outside captivity. Yes, they were free, but what is the point of freedom if you arent contributing to anything? "

Who died and left you in charge, so you can decide what people should or not do ?


"Slavery is bad, and I believe they should allow the slaves to instead be considered workers, be paid, raise a family, etc. But it's the Mojave, and there is no perfect faction. Slavery is close enough, at least the slaves serve a purpose now. "

You do know that if the legion dies the pockets of civilization that live fine by working and paying taxes can expand right ? What kind of autism caused you to believe people should be enslaved ?

"It's a post apocalyptic world. There are all sorts of different factions, and they are all out for blood. Caesar ensures that any part that the Legion occupies, it is safe. You will see NCR caravans destroyed across the Mojave, but you will never see a Caesars Legion caravan destroyed, or a trader that operates within their realm. Legionnaires are much more loyal to their cause than any other faction, minus the traditional BoS, who has just lost all forms of common sense."

What game have you played ? Most factions dont want blood.

Ofc legions roads are safe, you wont see no one because they dont want their daughters raped and sold to slavery.


"Long-term stability:
At this point it is just theories. There are many ways that Legion can survive long term, and many ways it can fall. If Lucius or Vulpes was appointed successor instead of Lanius, it would be possible."

Slavery never worked, staline and mao tried it, did a lot of harm and they got thrown, these legion larpers arent going far.


"The Legion is focused on using renewable resources to rebuild society.
NCR, BoS, and House are all focused on using non-renewable resources to rebuild society.

Depending on non-renewable resources lead to global apocalypse, and it will again, and again, and again. Depending only on renewable resources is the safest, securest, and most logical method to ensure the species' survival. Morals and ethics always come second to straight survival."

What are you basing this upon ? Repeat with me, not an argument lol.

"The NCR also uses slavery, but they are less open about it being slavery. Forcing people to work in order to survive, due to the economical domination of a select few. Work, or die. Fight, or die. With no personal gain, is slavery.

The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselve"

How shameful your argumentation, completely dishonest intelectually, the ncr does not, i repeat, does not use slavery, and you are distorting facts.

"The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselves.

The NCR, is not. The NCR has to expand, as it is using up its resources faster than it can accumulate them. They cannot even protect their own people from each other, let alone the numerous slaver/raider bands located within their borders."

The legion has consistently been kicked in the butt, what are you talking about ? They didnt even change a single tactic after the first loss of Hoover dam, same dumbass tactics, the ncr rangers ate them up. Literally all factions but khans (half dozen druggies)are against the legion, like everyone, they are done. The ncr is the government, they always win because of their effective taxations, fresh recruits and superior firepower.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ someone's angry

Angry? They made a reasonable counter-argument. Actually this thread has been pretty civil, all things considered.

[just.nuke.em]

Yes Man for President

[The Dark Spectacled Admiral]

Publicado originalmente por Ghost Rider:

(Backlash incoming)
The Legion is the best morality-wise, they do what is right (typically) and when someone does something wrong, they are rightfully punished. As stated before, there are a few things I disagree with, but I can deal with it.

Yeah, you asked for it literaly and figuratively.

The Legion rape women and murder men. The legion rape women and murder men. The Legion rape women and murder men. Not to mention that the legion finds possesion of recreational drugs, sexual promiscuity, and being pyshicaly weak capital crimes. The legion is not moral, not even amoral, it is the single most immoral entity in any fallout. I thought your entire arguement was that the Legion was the strongest faction, not the most moral. Because if you want to know which faction is the most moral: ITS ONE OF THE FACTIONS THAT PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF MAN, EITHER THE NCR OR THE FOLLOWERS. There is simply no disagreeing with that in any capacity.

I will forever be amazed that people can see the mojave and think. "Look at all these people NOT getting raped and murdered, if only someone could come here and murder, rape, and enslave." And not think to themselves, "Look at all these people struggling to defend their life, liberty, and property, if only someone could come here and help defend life, liberty, and property."

[courier 302]

Tbh I'd rather play as the Legion over the NCR. I just find it more enjoyable and different. It always annoys me how the NCR are always sooking about something. I like the bravado of the Legion. I also prefer their fighting style and choice of weapons. But I ultimately prefer Independent New Vegas.

[Fadaz]

Publicado originalmente por Mad:

Publicado originalmente por Ulysses:

Obsidian didn't have enough time to fully flesh out the Legion. So all you really end up seeing are their war camps. Originally it was intended to be able to see some of the Legion's locations, possibly in Arizona.

And tbh not many people support the NCR who are actually in the NCR. Most wastelanders (especially in the small towns) are ambivalent about the whole situation. So its not entirely an NCR lovefest.

I'm well aware of the lack of time, but even with fleshed out Legion, it doesn't make crucifixion, slavery and rap*ing any more appealing. With the time they had at their disposal, they could use it to make Legion appeal more to players even if it means having them less fleshed out.

" With the time they had at their disposal, they could use it to make Legion appeal more to players even if it means having them less fleshed out."

Appeal to 'modern west' players I suppose? obsidian had enough balls to put those degeneracy aspects into game because this is what post-apocalypse look like. You're not playing the sims where everything is black and white. Fallout universe is supposed to be a grey-morally themed survival game and it did a good job pissing off snowflakes with their wishful thinking.

[N00B]

My fastest playthrough of NV was my Legion playthrough. I went straight to Caeser, did his quests with extreme efficiency, sabotaged his brain surgery and took the damn for the achievement.
From there on they remained my enemy.
They were a loose collection of tribes that were slaughtered en masse, with the survivors being left mentally crippled, forced into obedience to the legion. Their greatest strength is their loyalty. They will charge recklessly into any given scenario and blindly hurl themselves at whatever enemy they can find, taking their equipment for themselves and growing in power by seizing it from others. Their battle strategies is quite similar to the Blitzkriege of WW2 or the rapid advances of the Napoleonic wars. Their camps are small and haphazardly put together because they're not interesting in keeping territory, but taking it (as evidenced by the dialogue with Lanius). They use guerilla warfare to cannibalize enemy equipent as were German soldiers instructed to do if they needed parts to fix or replace their weapons mid-combat.
The NCR only struggles because they're reliant on the slow and methodical strategic maneuvering of a thinking enemy and don't have the autonomy and rapid responses needed to deal with a threat like the Legion.

The Legions greatest contribution to the Mojave is their blatant evil-ness. It is purely because of the threat they pose that any notions of grey-morality can be left aside. They are the reason the Brotherhood of Steal and NCR could somehow put aside their differences and unite. They are the reason the NCR would consider sparing the remaining Khans (if you successfully complete Oh My Papa, with that quest even having a potential ending where the Khans will side with the NCR). They are the reason remaining former members of the Enclave would take on military roles again alongside the NCR. They are also the reason why reprehensible but cunning factions become transparent and prone to failure. The White Glove Society being revealed as the savages they are and being dealt with before their crimes could become more numerous. The White-Legs made themselves targets of the Courier and of Joshua as they expanded their murderous ways to serve Caesar. In a world with moral greys they act as a stark contrast between objective good and evil, their unrealistic, abject monstrosity enabling and equal and opposite outcome of otherwise unrealistic, optimistic peace.

They could have probably made a journal or diary for Caesar where he explains that he formed the Legion solely so the factions of the Mojave could unite to defeat it instead of engaging in pointless conflicts against eachother and it would probably have made Edward one of the smartest and most effective members of the followers of the Apocalypse that had ever lived.

[Valden21]

IMO, the one thing that Legion justifiers never admit is that the Legion CAN'T stay together once Caesar is dead. The wiki openly states that everything about the Legion is focus SOLELY on Caesar. Personal loyalty to Caesar, NOT to the Legion as a whole, and it's a personality cult to boot. The guy honestly believes that he's a demigod, the Son of Mars. IRL history has shown, MULTIPLE times, exactly why such a combination is a bad thing. Adding to that the fact that his two most crucial lieutenants HATE each other, and the Legion's gonna fall apart when he dies.

[Nanami]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.