Justifying the Legion, and why they are the best.

[Richard I]

We can dismiss NCR, yes you get the most freedom but that isn't the best thing in a post nuclear world. They are way too overstretched, corrupt, and there is no standard.

Independent New Vegas would be bad too, because the Courier would move on to new adventures, and taking care of the Mojave is an adventure in itself. Mr House is the only single intellect that could handle the Mojave on his own - brain-wise

So it comes down to Mr House or the Legion. Mr House doesnt care about anything except New Vegas and scientific advancement. He wants to colonize other planets before he takes the country. It makes sense, but at the same time the only way to ensure stability on earth is by being the most powerful on earth, not moving a chunk of the power to another planet. Not to mention if someone managed to get into the lucky 38, through bombs or anything, they could easily kill Mr House. It is entirely possible for him to upgrade his security, but it's been 200 years and he hasn't cared to.

Then Caesar. Let's first view the arguments against Caesar. His views on women, slavery, brutality, and that when he dies, the Legion dies. Let's go ahead and get slavery out of the way.

Slavery
They only enslave a percentage of people, and Canyon Runner explains it good: (paraphrased) They did not serve a purpose when they were outside captivity. Yes, they were free, but what is the point of freedom if you arent contributing to anything? At least they serve a purpose as slaves for Caesar. The only slaves were typically from tribals, towns were not brought into slavery.

Slavery is bad, and I believe they should allow the slaves to instead be considered workers, be paid, raise a family, etc. But it's the Mojave, and there is no perfect faction. Slavery is close enough, at least the slaves serve a purpose now.

I dont justify prewar slavery (what actually happened) because those who were taken did serve a purpose. They were working for their communities and providing for their families. In the Mojave, its different.

Treatment of women:
Yeah, I disagree with this point wholeheartedly, but like with prewar America, it probably wont be permanent.

Brutality:
It's a post apocalyptic world. There are all sorts of different factions, and they are all out for blood. Caesar ensures that any part that the Legion occupies, it is safe. You will see NCR caravans destroyed across the Mojave, but you will never see a Caesars Legion caravan destroyed, or a trader that operates within their realm. Legionnaires are much more loyal to their cause than any other faction, minus the traditional BoS, who has just lost all forms of common sense.

Long-term stability:
At this point it is just theories. There are many ways that Legion can survive long term, and many ways it can fall. If Lucius or Vulpes was appointed successor instead of Lanius, it would be possible.

But the main theory for me is that Caesar gets access to a tube like Mr House. The technology is there, Caesar just has to accept it. He is willing to use an auto-doc and other advanced medical equipment on himself, he will at least consider the idea of a long lasting Legion.

A forum post by Rampagingwalrus also helped support this:

The Legion is focused on using renewable resources to rebuild society.
NCR, BoS, and House are all focused on using non-renewable resources to rebuild society.

Depending on non-renewable resources lead to global apocalypse, and it will again, and again, and again. Depending only on renewable resources is the safest, securest, and most logical method to ensure the species' survival. Morals and ethics always come second to straight survival.

The NCR also uses slavery, but they are less open about it being slavery. Forcing people to work in order to survive, due to the economical domination of a select few. Work, or die. Fight, or die. With no personal gain, is slavery.

The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselves.

The NCR, is not. The NCR has to expand, as it is using up its resources faster than it can accumulate them. They cannot even protect their own people from each other, let alone the numerous slaver/raider bands located within their borders.

[Rogue]

Well written although I disagree with most of it.

Your forgetting that the legion itself is smaller than the NCR. If you think the NCR is spread thin, the legion would be even thinner.

Just because the NCR looses the Dam doesn't eliminate them from the Mohave. In fact it would actually strengthen them. The legion would still be jammed into their small territory as before.
It is very unlikely that the Legion could take over New Vegas and the surrounding area.

Thanks to Mr. House, New Vegas has it's own Nuke power plant so the loss of the Dam means very little.

Caesar is dying and would probably be dead before anyone could hook him up to the tubes.

but who knows? :)

[dias17se]

"They are way too overstretched, corrupt, and there is no standard"

So is the legion.

"Independent New Vegas would be bad too, because the Courier would move on to new adventures, and taking care of the Mojave is an adventure in itself. Mr House is the only single intellect that could handle the Mojave on his own - brain-wise"

No, the securitrons can do it fine, and you conveniently forgot the 3 families.

"So it comes down to Mr House or the Legion"

No, you dismissed the best options and came to this yourself.

"Slavery
They only enslave a percentage of people"

Its only a few people !!!!!!! No one would take you serious after that sentence, have you seen slavery in real life ? You have no clue what you are talking about.

"They did not serve a purpose when they were outside captivity. Yes, they were free, but what is the point of freedom if you arent contributing to anything? "

Who died and left you in charge, so you can decide what people should or not do ?


"Slavery is bad, and I believe they should allow the slaves to instead be considered workers, be paid, raise a family, etc. But it's the Mojave, and there is no perfect faction. Slavery is close enough, at least the slaves serve a purpose now. "

You do know that if the legion dies the pockets of civilization that live fine by working and paying taxes can expand right ? What kind of autism caused you to believe people should be enslaved ?

"It's a post apocalyptic world. There are all sorts of different factions, and they are all out for blood. Caesar ensures that any part that the Legion occupies, it is safe. You will see NCR caravans destroyed across the Mojave, but you will never see a Caesars Legion caravan destroyed, or a trader that operates within their realm. Legionnaires are much more loyal to their cause than any other faction, minus the traditional BoS, who has just lost all forms of common sense."

What game have you played ? Most factions dont want blood.

Ofc legions roads are safe, you wont see no one because they dont want their daughters raped and sold to slavery.


"Long-term stability:
At this point it is just theories. There are many ways that Legion can survive long term, and many ways it can fall. If Lucius or Vulpes was appointed successor instead of Lanius, it would be possible."

Slavery never worked, staline and mao tried it, did a lot of harm and they got thrown, these legion larpers arent going far.


"The Legion is focused on using renewable resources to rebuild society.
NCR, BoS, and House are all focused on using non-renewable resources to rebuild society.

Depending on non-renewable resources lead to global apocalypse, and it will again, and again, and again. Depending only on renewable resources is the safest, securest, and most logical method to ensure the species' survival. Morals and ethics always come second to straight survival."

What are you basing this upon ? Repeat with me, not an argument lol.

"The NCR also uses slavery, but they are less open about it being slavery. Forcing people to work in order to survive, due to the economical domination of a select few. Work, or die. Fight, or die. With no personal gain, is slavery.

The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselve"

How shameful your argumentation, completely dishonest intelectually, the ncr does not, i repeat, does not use slavery, and you are distorting facts.

"The Legion may be savage, and ruthless, but they are secure. They are capable of supporting themselves in the wasteland they find themselves.

The NCR, is not. The NCR has to expand, as it is using up its resources faster than it can accumulate them. They cannot even protect their own people from each other, let alone the numerous slaver/raider bands located within their borders."

The legion has consistently been kicked in the butt, what are you talking about ? They didnt even change a single tactic after the first loss of Hoover dam, same dumbass tactics, the ncr rangers ate them up. Literally all factions but khans (half dozen druggies)are against the legion, like everyone, they are done. The ncr is the government, they always win because of their effective taxations, fresh recruits and superior firepower.

[ProfileName]

I dont like the Legion but I like them more than NCR or Brotherhood (Enclave for me) but I only will comment about a few things, the Legion is missing out on roughly missing half of the army the could have, if they allowed women in they could have twice as much soldiers. And for slavery they would also drop that after a few dozen years, but under legate lanius the Legion will twice as brutal, meaning they could turn more violent which could mean other factions fight back, NCR, Brotherhood, Easy Pete, etc. But otherwise they need to evolve they cant win every war with spears and a few Centurion with guns, they need a army worthy of them, the Boomers could just fly the bomber they might have and blow them up, this is an example as you can create a truce with them.

[JobeGardener]

"This is Sparta!"

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by dias17se:

The legion has consistently been kicked in the butt, what are you talking about ? They didnt even change a single tactic after the first loss of Hoover dam, same dumbass tactics, the ncr rangers ate them up. Literally all factions but khans (half dozen druggies)are against the legion, like everyone, they are done. The ncr is the government, they always win because of their effective taxations, fresh recruits and superior firepower.

In no way am I in favor of the Legion, but I did roleplay a Legion frumentarii in one playthrough and the Legion definitely has allies, or at least other factions that support their fight against the NCR. Also the NCR has even fewer allies than the Legion. Many of the NCR's allies are only "allies", because they were forced to join.

Legion:
Great Khans
Powder Gangers (inadvertently)
Omertas
White Glove Society
Boomers (via courier)
Fiends (inadvertently)
White Legs
Van Graffs (sort of - Gloria hates NCR)

NCR:
Followers of the Apocalypse
Brotherhood of Steel (via courier)
Enclave Remnants (via courier)
Boomers (via courier)
Crimson Caravan
Gun Runners (debatable - they aren't subsidized by the NCR)
Kings (via courier)

Basically, without the courier, the NCR is surrounded by "allies" of Caesars Legion. The rest of the factions are either independent or uninterested in the conflict between NCR and Caesars Legion.

Also, in regards to tactics. The Legion at least has a solution for dealing with the NCR rangers, using the howitzer. There is a sidequest for Legion characters to help the Legion get the howitzer fixed so they can bomb the Rangers who sit behind the NCR frontline.

[Vallence]

Originally posted by Ulysses:

Van Graffs (sort of - Gloria hates NCR)

Have you never played to the end of Birds Of A Feather?
Gloria sets up the Legion to lead a load of their men into a trap for the NCR. She hates the NCR, but she hates the Legion more.

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by Vallence:

Originally posted by Ulysses:

Van Graffs (sort of - Gloria hates NCR)

Have you never played to the end of Birds Of A Feather?
Gloria sets up the Legion to lead a load of their men into a trap for the NCR. She hates the NCR, but she hates the Legion more.

Yes thats what I mean by "sort of". I know that she sets up the Legion, but going off the wikia:

"Surprisingly, Gloria Van Graff respects the Legion but thinks very little of their military might. Unsurprisingly, the Van Graffs hate the NCR mostly as they often stop their expansion with regulations and taxes. They also stated how at one point they would have been able to take on the NCR head-to-head, but as of the New Vegas era the NCR is said to be too large."

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Van_Graffs

If going off that. One can assume that the Van Graffs wiped out the Legion soldiers to cover up their dealings with them.

[Richard I]

You really dislike the Legion dont you, dias17?

I just wanted to establish, many of the things you criticize me for saying, I did not say at all. You criticize me personally for quotes by others. Nobody died and put me in charge. The words came from Canyon Runner. Rampagingwalrus made that nice contribution, so criticizing me for saying that is wrong.

But now that that is out of the way, how is the Legion corrupt? Who is taking advantage of the Legion? Caesar is the leader, obviously he has more benefits. Everyone understands that he is the leader and will do anything for him. And the only reason their trade routes are safe is because they arent stretched as thin as the NCR. Traders still travel through Legion territory, Dale Barton for example.

And yes, slavery hasn't worked. Slavery is not good. But the way Caesar approaches it is much better than Stalin's way. And the time period during Stalin's reign set the stone long before he fell.

Factions are out for blood. If they weren't, they wouldn't enter all-out warfare over mild disagreements.

Those that fight Caesar are enslaved. They are essentially POW's put to work. There are a few others that are enslaved also, but it is a small amount.

And since when would the 3 families do a good job protecting the Mojave?

Also, please lay off the insults. They accomplish nothing. Keep this conversation as calm as possible, for that is all this is.

[dias17se]

"Legion:
Great Khans
Powder Gangers (inadvertently)
Omertas
White Glove Society
Boomers (via courier)
Fiends (inadvertently)
White Legs
Van Graffs (sort of - Gloria hates NCR)"

Lots of confusion and dishonesty here, first of all, the only thing thats canon, is how the mojave is without the courier not interfering with anything.


The great khans just have manpower, they have no tech, since they do drugs, might not be a stretch if the legion turns on them. Caesar does it a lot.

The legion does NOT side with powder gangers, this is stated in the game, the legion attacks them because they disrupt order and are too chaotic.

The white legs are firstly in Utah, and will be very likely destroyed like vulpes did with ulysses tribe, caesar is known for betraying his enemies. It is mentioned in the game Caesar had no intentions to take in the white legs.

The van graffs butchered legion members for a few ncr coins, but assuming the courier doesnt interfere, how many legion members use laser guns ? lol Its not a stretch to believe they wont setup traps on the legion again.

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by dias17se:

Lots of confusion and dishonesty here, first of all, the only thing thats canon, is how the mojave is without the courier not interfering with anything.

If thats the case then the NCR really doesn't have any allies except for the Crimson Caravan and Followers of the Apocalypse, and if we are going off the Courier NOT interfering, then that would mean that the NCR has to not only contend with Caesars Legion, but also The Brotherhood of Steel, who are much larger than just their Mojave Chapter. That doesn't really bode well for NCR.

Originally posted by dias17se:

The legion does NOT side with powder gangers, this is stated in the game, the legion attacks them because they disrupt order and are too chaotic.

Yes, thats AFTER the second Battle of Hoover Dam. Beforehand, the Powder Gangers are a thorn in the side of the NCR. Which is what I mean by being inadvertently allied with the Legion. The Legion use the Powder Gangers the same way they use the Fiends. As a distraction to divide NCR's forces. I may be wrong, but I also don't think the Powder Ganger and Legion NPCs attack one another in the game files. Somewhat solidfying the temporary "alliance". But if you don't want to include the Powder Gangers, then that's fair enough.

Originally posted by dias17se:

The white legs are firstly in Utah, and will be very likely destroyed like vulpes did with ulysses tribe, caesar is known for betraying his enemies. It is mentioned in the game Caesar had no intentions to take in the white legs.

Okay? Doesn't make them any less of an ally to the Legion. Yes, they eventually get absorbed, but not until the events after Hoover Dam. Beforehand, they are allied with the Legion. Same goes for the Great Khans.

Originally posted by dias17se:

The van graffs butchered legion members for a few ncr coins, but assuming the courier doesnt interfere, how many legion members use laser guns ? lol Its not a stretch to believe they wont setup traps on the legion again.

See my post above. Gloria respects the Legion. Only reason they attacked them during Birds of the Feather is because the NCR crashed the deal and the Van Graffs didn't want to be caught in a trade deal with the Legion. But I'd still put the Van Graffs in the "semi-ally" catagory.

Regardless, the point is that Legion allies far outweigh NCR allies.

[dias17se]

"You really dislike the Legion dont you, dias17?"

Why would i like a group that would gang rape my wife, kids, and then sold them to slavery ?

Whats wrong with your head ???

" the only reason their trade routes are safe is because they arent stretched as thin as the NCR."

The only reason its safe, its because they are deserted, no one wants to be crucified, its as safe as isis zones in our world for a close example.

"And yes, slavery hasn't worked. Slavery is not good. But the way personx approaches it is much better than person y way. And the time period during person x reign set the stone long before he fell."

...said by every single tyrant in history, repeat with me: "not an argument"


"Factions are out for blood. If they weren't, they wouldn't enter all-out warfare over mild disagreements."

Like i said, no they arent. NCR wants to rebuild the 20th century gov, slowly take over vegas peacefully, brotherhood are hoarding tech but they stay on their hole, boomers stay on their turf,

khans make drugs and may also commit raider alike crime.

Its the legion and the fiends who want to destabilize and shed blood.

I think you must have played another game.

"And since when would the 3 families do a good job protecting the Mojave?"

I meant the strip.


Im not insulting anyone, but people that support slavery come off as mentally ill to me.

[dias17se]

"If thats the case then the NCR really doesn't have any allies except for the Crimson Caravan and Followers of the Apocalypse, and if we are going off the Courier NOT interfering, then that would mean that the NCR has to not only contend with Caesars Legion, but also The Brotherhood of Steel, who are much larger than just their Mojave Chapter. That doesn't really bode well for NCR."

Even if they only had the crimson caravan theyd still win. In war whoever has best supply routes wins.

Its this very argument that makes lanius run away at the end, the legion has no friends, thats the brutal truth.

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by dias17se:

Even if they only had the crimson caravan theyd still win. In war whoever has best supply routes wins.
Its this very argument that makes lanius run away at the end, the legion has no friends, thats the brutal truth.

Legion has traders/supply lines too though. Dale Barton and I think Raul confirm this. You are definitely correct regarding supply lines though, but that's not the reason the Legion doesn't fare well against the NCR.

The reason the Legion doesn't fare well against the NCR is because its built on Darwinian principles. The physically strong survive, while the weak are executed or enslaved. Those principles keep the Legion from evolving beyond its tribalist status, and without Caesar leading the Legion, they really aren't any different from your typical pack of raiders.

[ProfileName]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgw3NgYTR6U

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by LoreEnthusiast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgw3NgYTR6U

Damnnn that video pretty much summed up all my arguments against the Legion. The biggest issue being both technology and lack of a clear successor for Caesar.