Are the Great Khans good or evil?

[Akfiz]

I think they are evil, like the: Powder Gangers, Fiends, Jackals and Vipers. But I've seen some people over the internet that support them and it makes me wonder why.

In the game you have the choice between helping them or exterminating them. So far I'm inclined to exterminate them but I want to make sure I make the right choice.

Here are my arguments for why the Great Khans are evil:

1. They are basically savage raiders -> Apart from their exaggerated tribal pride (they are quite proud of themselves despite not having anything to be proud of) they are just like any other brutal raider tribe: they ambush caravans or other people then loot, pillage and kill them.

2. They trade drugs with other equally evil tribes like the Fiends

3. Their system of government is also tribal -> They respect strength and strength alone, many in the Great Khans came leaders by killing the previous leader. Basically, just like any other tribe where the leader is a strong not necessarly wise warmonger.

4. They have slaves

5. They deserved what happened at Bitter Springs since they started it -> Women and children were killed due to miscommunication, but even with that in mind the Great Khans more than deserved what happened to them at Bitter Springs, why? They started it. They attacked the NCR first and then were suprised and played the victim when NCR retaliated.

Their denial that Bitter Spings was their fault makes them either fools or blind. Or maybe according to them they have the right to pillage, loot and kill whoever they want but when someone returns the favor they are suddenly wronged. If you kick a dog, don’t go complaining when it becomes a two headed bear and beats the ♥♥♥♥ out of you.

6. They are stuck in the (fake) past -> They count too much on their "past glory" and "great traditions and culture" of the Great Khans despite having none. If you take out the color of their clothes (which any tribe has) they are just like any basic barbaric tribe except more incompetent. The real-life Khans craved an empire, they had something to be proud of, even if they weren't good at least they made great achievements, like The Legion, the Great Khans' greatest achievement however was not dying after being beaten and kicked out by just about everything, quite the though tribe.

Counter-arguments:

1. They take care of their own and are trying to survive in the wasteland -> The same thing can be said about any other faction in the wasteland or in real life. The NRC, The Legion and Mr.House are also trying to take care of their own and survive the wasteland. Literally and group of people in the world has a sense of community, protecting your own is natural, it doesn't make them better than other tribals. They are still raiders and have always been.

2. They are not as evil as other tribes -> They are, they still murder and sell drugs for a living and are quite proud of it. They just have extra fancy clothes and a misguided/false tribal pride. They are worse than the Powder Gangers or the disorganized Jackals and Vipers. Softer than the Fiends and other "drugged up murder machine" style raiders, but that doesn't make them less evil overall, just less evil than the Fiends.

They are trying to be evil and conquer the world under an system of government dominated by brute force and barbarian values, they just don't seem to be that evil because they always fail.

I think it's the best if they are exterminated. If they are allowed to leave and built an Empire after reconnecting with the Followers, as the ending mentions after the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, they may finally become an actual threat.

That's not to say that NCR or Mr.Vegas are the good guys either, there's no pure good and pure evil here (not even the Legion), but I think NCR and Mr.Vegas definetly fall under the good guys shade of grey spectrum while the Great Khans and Legion fall under the bad guys shade of grey spectrum.

In conclusion:

To me, they are the Failure Legionaries. The Legion does everything they want to do but better. The Legion are equally evil, but unlike the Great Khans they are also competent.

They are nothing more than an opportunisitc blight to the post-apocalyptic world.

What do you think about the Great Khans? Are they good or evil? Should they be helped, left alone or exterminated?

[Jack Jester]

A Drug-Dealer, is he good oder evil? Everyone knows what the answer is!

[Rogue]

Exterminated as quickly as possible, starting with their drug makers.
By the way, nicely written.

[psychotron666]

Neither. Unless you think supplying drugs to paying customers in a consensual agreement between two adults is evil, in which case you should go back to watching Tyrone plow your wife

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

They're a lawful evil at best. They're like the polar opposites of the FotA in which they don't help others and have a tough initiation to join their gang.

Yeah they peddle drugs but tbh they sorta semi have to b/c they live in the most inhospitable areas with deathclaws, cazadors, and just a ton of mutants all over the place.

Ironically if you choose to help them break their alligence and go north; in the end they join up with the FotA and strengthen their tribes (probably b/c they're the strength and the FotA are the brains).

You can also sorta steer them into the lawful evil path by having the drug runners make fixers or stimpacks for their drug buyers, and to break their alligence with Caesar.


still, there really isn't a good or bad in terms of survival in any faction in NV or overall in any fallout:
-NCR are trying to reclaim the land to make it pre-war and martial law. Though killing off the natives and having non-flexible laws and rules (without your speech checks) is pretty bad.

-The remenants are the last pre-war faction and most are trying to do what the NCR is trying too but in a more secret manner. Though i'd probably put it as the 5 monkey syndrome where they're just trying to do things they way they were always done before

-The BoS, at least the first couple of OG palladins, knew about FEV and some probably saw what the bombs did, so they probably try to hide and hoarde all the pre-war high tech in order to ensure no one uses it again for evil purposes. Then again they're secluded and ♥♥♥♥ up alot (especially in the Helios plant) so they're far from perfect too

-Caesar's legion is probably the most underrated since they're mostly trying to unite NV but in the worst way possible lol. They don't tolerate ♥♥♥♥ like drugs, alcohol, but also undervalue women and human decency/rights with slaves.

-Fiends are just druggies who need their next fix tbh. But they basically follow the will of their top 4 leaders (motor head, violet, cook-cook, and nephiri).

-Boomers are vault dwelers that are like the BoS only they can sustain themselves since they show their power to the rest of the wasteland if you get too close, while the BoS only uses a crappy standstorm to hide behind

-the casino tribes too like the white glove society, good example, were cannibals and did it most probably to survive. Trying to change their tradition, no matter how wrong they were, is understandable that some of the members would be a little against going from traditions to new guidelines.


and you have Mr. House and Benny whom Mr. House does things in a business standpoint, while benny did some bad ♥♥♥♥ in order to take over and have Yes Man run NV.

[Comsiama]

there is no right or wrong answer mate do not make the mistake of oversimplifying good and evil this game does a great job in making you question the morals and ethics of the choices you make; sometimes the choice you legit thought was the rightful one will have terrible consequences or maybe vice versa or it will follow the logic of being good because the choice was seemingly good; if you exterminate them you commit a massacre, how are you any better? that complexity is what makes New Vegas so good and enjoyable to spend time on.

[Akfiz]

You are any better because they loot, pillage and kill innocent people while you loot, pillage and kill barbaric raiders. And because they started it.

NCR kills Legionaries and the Legions kills the NCR. Yet "how is NCR any better?" is an absurd question.

The same reasoning goes for Bitter Spings. The Great Khans complain that NCR attacked them AFTER they killed innocent NCR civillians. Like what the heck? They more than deserved it.

The tragic part is that NCR killed Great Khans women and children due to miscommunication, but the Great Khans kill innocent people for a living, yet they don't care about that part.

[Hat8]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Neither. Unless you think supplying drugs to paying customers in a consensual agreement between two adults is evil, in which case you should go back to watching Tyrone plow your wife

But its more than that. They raid people when they don't have to and side with villains like the fiends.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by Akfiz:

You are any better because they loot, pillage and kill innocent people while you loot, pillage and kill barbaric raiders. And because they started it.

NCR kills Legionaries and the Legions kills the NCR. Yet "how is NCR any better?" is an absurd question.

The same reasoning goes for Bitter Spings. The Great Khans complain that NCR attacked them AFTER they killed innocent NCR civillians. Like what the heck? They more than deserved it.

The tragic part is that NCR killed Great Khans women and children due to miscommunication, but the Great Khans kill innocent people for a living, yet they don't care about that part.

pretty much lol

tbh though most/a good chunk of the tribe locations and settlements were overtaken from their previous owners/settlers (especially places like vault 3 and bittersprings).

It'd be 100% justified to do a genocide route where you kill every tribal/faction (including BoS, legion, and the NCR) and let Yes Man overtake NV. Only exception is probably the boomers (they learned their lesson of overcrowding and ♥♥♥♥ from their vault), and the FotA since they're actually trying to do good in the wastelands.

If you do the passive route and help everyone you're just not changing ♥♥♥♥ but reinforcing each tribals/faction's power and strength so that they can basically do more raids or kill others. If you kill most of the factions/tribals and leave the actual good people alive then you can probably ensure a less chaotic and bloodshed filled wastelands.

[Comsiama]

It is all relative do not be blind by your own prejudices good and evil are never simple.

[Akfiz]

Originally posted by (TF2SP) Cow Milk:

Originally posted by Akfiz:

You are any better because they loot, pillage and kill innocent people while you loot, pillage and kill barbaric raiders. And because they started it.

NCR kills Legionaries and the Legions kills the NCR. Yet "how is NCR any better?" is an absurd question.

The same reasoning goes for Bitter Spings. The Great Khans complain that NCR attacked them AFTER they killed innocent NCR civillians. Like what the heck? They more than deserved it.

The tragic part is that NCR killed Great Khans women and children due to miscommunication, but the Great Khans kill innocent people for a living, yet they don't care about that part.

pretty much lol

tbh though most/a good chunk of the tribe locations and settlements were overtaken from their previous owners/settlers (especially places like vault 3 and bittersprings).

It'd be 100% justified to do a genocide route where you kill every tribal/faction (including BoS, legion, and the NCR) and let Yes Man overtake NV. Only exception is probably the boomers (they learned their lesson of overcrowding and ♥♥♥♥ from their vault), and the FotA since they're actually trying to do good in the wastelands.

If you do the passive route and help everyone you're just not changing ♥♥♥♥ but reinforcing each tribals/faction's power and strength so that they can basically do more raids or kill others. If you kill most of the factions/tribals and leave the actual good people alive then you can probably ensure a less chaotic and bloodshed filled wastelands.

I think NCR are kinda the good guys and the best faction you can pick.

Sure, they have every problem a present-day democracy has:
- Corruption (plenty)
- Nepotism (It happens)
- Monopoles (The Barrons)
- Shady Dealings (Crimson Caravan & Van Graffs)

But at least they're not as bad as: The Great Khans, The Legion, Powder Gangers, Fiends, etc.

If you were to live in the Fallout Universe, would you rather be a citizen of the NCR or of any other faction there is?

At least NCR believes in personal liberty.

The only problem I have with NCR is that they force you to become part of them whether you like it or not. "Civillization at all costs".

The same "Civillization at all costs" happens to Mr.House. Even though many of his dealings are of common agreement, these are cases such as the Vault 22, but unlike NCR, he is also vengeful, look at the Primm ending if it sides with NCR and Mr.House wins the game.


Mr.House is second after NCR. On the bright side, if Mr.House wins New Vegas will still be independent and NCR will still have California so they aren't erased from the map. It will create a balance on powers.

Besides, Mr.House is:
- Eternal (can live forever)
- Not a dicatator.
That adds a lot of stablity to Vegas.

While NCR is still struggling with democracy and the Brotherhood of Steel just want to keep all technology for themselves (kind of a dumb goal if you ask me) because according to them only they can be trusted with it, the Legion just wants to enslave everyone under a dictatorship.

At best you could argue Mr.House is a benevolent dictator except for when you side with the wrong side, he always does what he wants and forces order for the greater good. So you have to break a few eggs, but that omelette is going to be the best omelette ever made.

Besides, Mr.House is incredibly honest. And wants to do business with you, as opposed to "do this or I'll kill you", but he is also quite isolationist, he doesn't include anyone in his plan unless they have a direct inplication in his plan.

He won't help Freeside "just because" but then again neither does NCR until after they have conquered it. But at least NCR has plans to improve Freeside after they conquer it.

The Boomers ending goes like: "Mr. House showed little interest on the Boomers, who eventually began venturing out of Nellis to meet and trade with travelers." and for Primm "Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Mr. House. As repayment for their NCR loyalty, Mr. House sends Securitrons to Primm to "protect" it and collect heavy taxes from its citizens.".

So my first choice is NCR and my second choice is Mr.House. If he wasn't that isolationist and actually cared for those who had no direct implication with his plans, and if he weren't that vengeful and actually forgave those who picked the wrong side during the war or understand that they had no choice, he would have been my first choice.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by 786543:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Neither. Unless you think supplying drugs to paying customers in a consensual agreement between two adults is evil, in which case you should go back to watching Tyrone plow your wife

But its more than that. They raid people when they don't have to and side with villains like the fiends.

But who? Who are the khans supposedly raiding? They don't attack most factions on sight, unlike raiders. They don't attack unaffiliated people on sight. They aren't raiding good springs or any of the surrounding towns. So how exactly are they raiders? Because they sell the fiends drugs?

[Akfiz]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Originally posted by 786543:

But its more than that. They raid people when they don't have to and side with villains like the fiends.

But who? Who are the khans supposedly raiding? They don't attack most factions on sight, unlike raiders. They don't attack unaffiliated people on sight. They aren't raiding good springs or any of the surrounding towns. So how exactly are they raiders? Because they sell the fiends drugs?

It is mentioned in the game that they raid people, by both NCR and Great Khans. The NCR may have their reason, but why would the Khans themselves lie?

But this should be obviously, shouldn't it? They are a barbaric tribe with a warrior culture, do you expect that they only/always sell chems?

And according to the lore:

"They prospered in the ruins of Las Vegas for several years, until they were forcibly driven out by Mr. House's Securitrons and his tribal allies. The Great Khans resettled at Bitter Springs, where they carried on as before, raiding nearby communities and travellers."

"Seeing them as intruders upon their territory, the Great Khans took to assaulting NCR civilians and outposts. The Khans hoped that Mr. House and his tribes would follow suit and attack the NCR and drive them away from New Vegas. Instead Mr. House signed the New Vegas Treaty leaving the Khans as the sole agitators of the NCR"

"After the massacre at Bitter Springs, the Followers of the Apocalypse offered their assistance to the beleaguered war band. They also taught the Great Khans how to make their own medicine; however, the Khans used this knowledge to make chems instead, eventually becoming the leading distributor of illegal and highly addictive chems in the Mojave. Disgusted at this perversion of their knowledge, the Followers ceased providing assistance and left."

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Akfiz:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

But who? Who are the khans supposedly raiding? They don't attack most factions on sight, unlike raiders. They don't attack unaffiliated people on sight. They aren't raiding good springs or any of the surrounding towns. So how exactly are they raiders? Because they sell the fiends drugs?

It is mentioned in the game that they raid people, by both NCR and Great Khans. The NCR may have their reason, but why would the Khans themselves lie?

But this should be obviously, shouldn't it? They are a barbaric tribe with a warrior culture, do you expect that they only/always sell chems?

And according to the lore:

"They prospered in the ruins of Las Vegas for several years, until they were forcibly driven out by Mr. House's Securitrons and his tribal allies. The Great Khans resettled at Bitter Springs, where they carried on as before, raiding nearby communities and travellers."

"Seeing them as intruders upon their territory, the Great Khans took to assaulting NCR civilians and outposts. The Khans hoped that Mr. House and his tribes would follow suit and attack the NCR and drive them away from New Vegas. Instead Mr. House signed the New Vegas Treaty leaving the Khans as the sole agitators of the NCR"

"After the massacre at Bitter Springs, the Followers of the Apocalypse offered their assistance to the beleaguered war band. They also taught the Great Khans how to make their own medicine; however, the Khans used this knowledge to make chems instead, eventually becoming the leading distributor of illegal and highly addictive chems in the Mojave. Disgusted at this perversion of their knowledge, the Followers ceased providing assistance and left."

So they were raiders but aren't anymore? Yeah that's established lore, as they were raiders from fallout 1 and 2, and have evolved every iteration we see them in. They're not raiding the followers, who would make easy raiding targets. They might be raiding ncr caravans, but they're essentially" at war" with the ncr, the same way how ncr will shoot brotherhood of steel on sight and vice versa.

But in game the khans don't attack unaffiliated people, like other raiders and the fiends do. They do dealings with the followers, who are arguably the most good faction. They don't shoot on sight most of the other factions if you're wearing disguises. And they will even consider leaving the legion alliance and siding with the ncr if you simply show them the truth. Hell, boones partner is even an ex Khan who's now in ncr military, and there's a Khan working as a construction worker in quarry junction.

We've also heard of nobody say the khans raided any nearby towns to their new base in red Rock canyon (like goodsprings)

And not sure why you highlighted the using chems to make drugs. Sorry, but that's not evil, unless you consider the liquor store owners and pharmacy employees evil. And even then, the khans will start making more helpful chems (healing) if you simply ask them to.

[Akfiz]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Originally posted by Akfiz:

It is mentioned in the game that they raid people, by both NCR and Great Khans. The NCR may have their reason, but why would the Khans themselves lie?

But this should be obviously, shouldn't it? They are a barbaric tribe with a warrior culture, do you expect that they only/always sell chems?

And according to the lore:

"They prospered in the ruins of Las Vegas for several years, until they were forcibly driven out by Mr. House's Securitrons and his tribal allies. The Great Khans resettled at Bitter Springs, where they carried on as before, raiding nearby communities and travellers."

"Seeing them as intruders upon their territory, the Great Khans took to assaulting NCR civilians and outposts. The Khans hoped that Mr. House and his tribes would follow suit and attack the NCR and drive them away from New Vegas. Instead Mr. House signed the New Vegas Treaty leaving the Khans as the sole agitators of the NCR"

"After the massacre at Bitter Springs, the Followers of the Apocalypse offered their assistance to the beleaguered war band. They also taught the Great Khans how to make their own medicine; however, the Khans used this knowledge to make chems instead, eventually becoming the leading distributor of illegal and highly addictive chems in the Mojave. Disgusted at this perversion of their knowledge, the Followers ceased providing assistance and left."

So they were raiders but aren't anymore? Yeah that's established lore, as they were raiders from fallout 1 and 2, and have evolved every iteration we see them in. They're not raiding the followers, who would make easy raiding targets. They might be raiding ncr caravans, but they're essentially" at war" with the ncr, the same way how ncr will shoot brotherhood of steel on sight and vice versa.

But in game the khans don't attack unaffiliated people, like other raiders and the fiends do. They do dealings with the followers, who are arguably the most good faction. They don't shoot on sight most of the other factions if you're wearing disguises. And they will even consider leaving the legion alliance and siding with the ncr if you simply show them the truth. Hell, boones partner is even an ex Khan who's now in ncr military, and there's a Khan working as a construction worker in quarry junction.

We've also heard of nobody say the khans raided any nearby towns to their new base in red Rock canyon (like goodsprings)

And not sure why you highlighted the using chems to make drugs. Sorry, but that's not evil, unless you consider the liquor store owners and pharmacy employees evil. And even then, the khans will start making more helpful chems (healing) if you simply ask them to.

The mentioned lore is from shortly before the events of New Vegas started, not during Fallout 1 or Fallout 2. So when the lore says that the Great Khans are raiding nearby communities and travellers, it means the Great Khans currenty raid nearby communities and travellers.

The Powder Gangers & The Legion don't attack you unless you have a bad reputation with them either, that doesn't make them less of a raider faction.

They kind of tricked the Followers, this is why the Followers didn't want to help them after they found out what they were doing with the information they shared, which makes them arguably a bad faction. The Followers didn't help the Khans because the Khans are good people, the Followers helped the Khans because the Followers are good people.

That old man from Quarry Junction isn't a Khan himself, his daughter is a Khan, he helps her steal chems from the NCR to make drugs out of them, naturally NCR doesn't know it.

If you ask NCR as well as Great Khans characters about Bitter Springs, they will tell you that the NCR attacked them because they attacked NCR citizens and caravans.

It's evil because the Khans are "the leading distributor of illegal and highly addictive chems in the Mojave". I highlighted they sell drugs to the Fiends which in turn makes them all go frenzy.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Akfiz:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

So they were raiders but aren't anymore? Yeah that's established lore, as they were raiders from fallout 1 and 2, and have evolved every iteration we see them in. They're not raiding the followers, who would make easy raiding targets. They might be raiding ncr caravans, but they're essentially" at war" with the ncr, the same way how ncr will shoot brotherhood of steel on sight and vice versa.

But in game the khans don't attack unaffiliated people, like other raiders and the fiends do. They do dealings with the followers, who are arguably the most good faction. They don't shoot on sight most of the other factions if you're wearing disguises. And they will even consider leaving the legion alliance and siding with the ncr if you simply show them the truth. Hell, boones partner is even an ex Khan who's now in ncr military, and there's a Khan working as a construction worker in quarry junction.

We've also heard of nobody say the khans raided any nearby towns to their new base in red Rock canyon (like goodsprings)

And not sure why you highlighted the using chems to make drugs. Sorry, but that's not evil, unless you consider the liquor store owners and pharmacy employees evil. And even then, the khans will start making more helpful chems (healing) if you simply ask them to.

The mentioned lore is from shortly before the events of New Vegas started, not during Fallout 1 or Fallout 2. So when the lore says that the Great Khans are raiding nearby communities and travellers, it means the Great Khans currenty raid nearby communities and travellers.

The Powder Gangers & The Legion don't attack you unless you have a bad reputation with them either, that doesn't make them less of a raider faction.

They kind of tricked the Followers, this is why the Followers didn't want to help them after they found out what they were doing with the information they shared, which makes them arguably a bad faction. The Followers didn't help the Khans because the Khans are good people, the Followers helped the Khans because the Followers are good people.

That old man from Quarry Junction isn't a Khan himself, his daughter is a Khan, he helps her steal chems from the NCR to make drugs out of them, naturally NCR doesn't know it.

If you ask NCR as well as Great Khans characters about Bitter Springs, they will tell you that the NCR attacked them because they attacked NCR citizens and caravans.

It's evil because the Khans are "the leading distributor of illegal and highly addictive chems in the Mojave". I highlighted they sell drugs to the Fiends which in turn makes them all go frenzy.

Legality does not equal morality. Because drugs are illegal or addictive doesn't make it evil to sell them. Alcohol is addictive, has no use but intoxication, and in most places in present time is legal, but was illegal for awhile too in countries (that doesn't mean it went from being evil because of prohibition to good because the government decided to make money off of it).

Sugar can be addictive too, but selling it isn't evil. A consensual transaction between two people that doesn't harm anybody else isn't evil.

The fact that the fiends are, well fiends, has nothing to do with the khans selling them drugs. They're addicted to drugs, so if the fiends werent supplying, they'd just be doing more makeshift drugs and getting high however they can, possibly being even more desperate in attacking ncr and Vegas due to withdrawal.

Because group a are evil, and group b is dealing financial transactions with group a, that doesn't automatically make group b evil.

Selling drugs isn't inherently evil, especially if you're informing the person you're selling what exactly you're selling them. Selling stimpacks laced with jet or something and not telling them that they're laced with jet knowing the damages it could cause, would likely be evil. But simply selling jet to someone who wants to buy jet isn't evil in itself.

And again, in the time of new Vegas, the khans aren't raiding everyone at random. They raided ncr because they're at war with ncr (same as ncr and brotherhood, who neither are inherently evil even if they shoot each other on sight). And like I said, they even side with the ncr if you show them the truth of the legion.

Were the native American tribes evil? If you looked at good and evil the way many hardcore religious settlers, then you'd say yes. But just because some tribes warred and raided other tribes and colonists who they saw as enemies, it doesn't make them inherently evil (doesn't make them good either). It could be a contributing factor, sure, but it alone won't make them evil.

I don't believe the khans are evil, but they aren't good either. They don't believe in killing children and non warrior women, they don't believe in slavery, they find crucifixion awful, they don't kill or attack random people on sight, they aren't cannibals, they'll change their mind about their enemies and even join them when new information is given to them, they dislike bad treatment of women, they'll honour verbal deals made, and have some kind of view of honour in general.

If anything I'd consider them lawful or true neutral (if we go by dnd alignments). You might be able to make a case of lawful evil when run by papa Khan, but even then I'd disagree because papa Khan is just misguided, not necessarily evil. He'll leave the legion if he finds out they're dishonourable, or finds out that the khans aren't gonna keep their identity and be absorbed by the legion. He won't join ncr due to stubbornness, but he'll leave the region altogether to save his people.