Stellaris

Stellaris

ST: New Horizons
Harel Jul 25, 2018 @ 12:20am
New Horizons Dev Diary #2: Starfleet’s Archetypes
Hi everyone, this is Harel again, balance lead for Paradoxical.

In our last dev diary, I discussed our planned overhaul for ship classes. If you haven’t, its strongly recommended you read the previous diary first – most of the materials discussed here will make little sense to you otherwise.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/688086068/1694919808741613364/

In a nutshell, we are moving away from our current core six ship classes to a more flexible system where every ship class in Star Trek is its own, individual, New Horizons ship class, with its own components, modifiers, tactical advantages and statistics.

Since this is a very nuanced process that requires rebalancing the entire mod, we are starting by changing the Federation ship roster. We will extend this concept to some other races in time, while others may simply have their own version of the “six core” classes (say, for example, a Ferengi battleship may be something a bit more agile, light yet shield-heavy). The majority of minor species, of course, will continue to use the existing “six core” classes.

What are we going to talk about today, and what is going on with the overhaul anyway?

We originally hoped to release the overhaul a few months ago, but personal issues for myself and other members of the team delayed things again and again. Most of the content and the balance work for the overhaul has been done; that being said, there is still some bugs and modeling work that needs to be completed, but I can say we’re close. Or as we like to say, release is Soon ™.

But since the overhaul is well underway I thought we would share more information about what you can expect to see upon release and talk to you a bit about archetypes.

What are archetypes?

There are going to be a LOT of different Federation classes for you to build – well over forty, currently.

Players will finally have the freedom to compose whatever sort of fleets they want. It also gives us the freedom to include some ships that some players found controversial, such as Discovery period ships. Players can now simply choose to ‘skip’ the ships they do not like.
That being said, forty ship classes are a huge number – it requires some categorization. Here are where archetypes come in. Archetypes are basically a laid-back version of the previous ‘classes’ – all federation ship classes are divided into archetypes, and inside that archetype, they share some unique advantages, access to certain components and modifiers, and are aimed toward a certain tactics.

Mind you, there is still a great deal of variety inside each archetype. Two ships inside the same archetype could act decidedly different. For example, the Akira and Norway are in the same archetype and are even unlocked at roughly the same tech level. However, the Akira would focus on offering a player a medium-heavy ship with either a carrier or torpedo launcher capabilities, while the Norway will be a lighter, agile ship capable of fielding some surprisingly heavy beam weapons.

Those two ships, however, do share an archetype – the multi-mission cruiser, a type that focuses on giving players access to a wide range of weapons and sections.

The Eight

Now that we got all of that out of the way, let us introduce the eight arche-types. You will note I am not going to mention most of the ships that belong to each archetype. This is in part because we are still refining the final list of models, but mostly because we also want to surprise you with the new models that are coming.

Let me also clarify in advance, since there will be sure to be a long debate about the archetypes themselves and the ship selection to each archetype, that no categorization of such a diverse range of ships from hundreds of years of lore could ever be completely perfect and agreed on by everyone. There are a lot of considerations that go into both the archetypes and the ship selection – a mix of canon, available resources, gameplay, balance, rate of progression, technical limitations and more.

  1. Frigate – the lightest ship in Starfleet, those ships usually focus on light weapons and bonuses to sub-light and warp speed.

    Example: Saladin class.

  2. Light Cruisers – similar to the ‘destroyer’ from the ‘core six’ classes, light cruisers are heavier frigates with emphasis on point-defense weapons, picket sensors and ship behavior, high tracking bonuses and torpedo-heavy loadouts.

    Example: Saber class.

  3. Explorer – a variant of light cruiser that is a bit sturdier. Those ships are meant to be long-serving ships in Starfleet and enjoy a small reduction in upkeep cost, but also bonuses to sensor range and speed. They can equip snares such as tractor beams, gain extra science utilities and have more advanced computers and thrusters.

    Example: Intrepid class.

  4. Multi-Mission Vessel – medium cruisers that are meant to serve as the workhorse of your Starfleet. They are meant to be very flexible designs produced in bulk – they are cheaper to build and to maintain, and offer an impressive flexibility in term of weapons, also supporting fighter craft, spinal mounts and some point defense. They have a wide “tech range”, which means they don’t become obsolete soon, have a wide range of section options and a very powerful utilities variant option (meaning their various secondary hull variants offer extra customization). They also can field ‘debuff’ auras that weaken the enemy.

    All of this being said; this diversity comes at a cost and their bonuses tend to be generic and rather less major.

    Example: Nebula class.

  5. Heavy Cruiser – a brute of a ship, a heavy cruiser is meant to be a combination of a tank and damage dealer – and are often your frontal flagship. Those ships are expensive to build and have a higher naval capacity cost as well, but they have very big bonuses to hull, shield and weapon damage, and come supplied with a skirmisher sensor and extra engineering utilities that make them even more powerful.

    Example: Constitution Class.

  6. Advanced Cruiser – Advanced cruisers are a being to themselves; they are the only ship that has access to sophisticated FTL solutions (such as the spore or transwarp drive), and have better shields, thrusters, computers and warp engines as well as a very serious weapon-heavy loadouts, sniper sensors and spinal mount weapons. However, they are extremely expensive and have a high naval cost capacity too.

    Example: Crossfield Class.

  7. Exploration Cruiser – A variant of the ‘battleship’ from the ‘core six’ list, exploration cruisers are slow, large ships serving as tank and support. They can field fighters and a support aura, as well as extra AUX utilities. The result as the heaviest, most shielded ships in Starfleet – and in the game.

    Example: Galaxy Class.

  8. Heavy Escort – A light warship with pure combat capabilities, the Heavy Escort comes with a blitzer sensor and extra tactical utilities. These ships are small, but heavy extra powerful shields, warp core and thrusters.

    Note that the ‘core six’ class of Heavy Escort is actually being changed, becoming a “heavy raider” – lighter than the current heavy escort and the future federation heavy escort.

    Example: Defiant.

A few surprises

You will also find that a few classes will have access to unique consoles, sections and weapons. For example, the Intrepid Class will have a variable geometry pylon component that will increase warp speed, while the Miranda class could mount unique burst phasers on their ‘rollbar’ – which is available as a unique section.

You may also find a few period specific weapons, with their own weapon effects. In time we hope to extend this, based on your feedback and suggestions. This system is incredibly versatile, dynamic and extendable, so let us know what you are hoping to see in term of weapons, sections and components, and we will see what can be done!
Last edited by Harel; Jul 25, 2018 @ 12:23am
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Showing 16-30 of 32 comments
Confusatron Jul 31, 2018 @ 9:20am 
I'm sure this isn't the right thread for this suggestion, but has the team considered making the science vessel models one of the new warship archetypes? Perhaps make them lightly armed and armored but with powerful support auras or extra long range sensors. This would allow players to use the the ship models more. We could even see them fight and get blown up.
Paradox's decidion to hard code science vessel mechanics is more and more regrettable every time this issue comes up.
Kunstrasen Jul 31, 2018 @ 10:35am 
Hey,
you really do a great job.
Can we hope to see some more TOS ship classes, like the Dreadnought from the TOS Manual?
And, is it possible to have a more variant system like: TOS Constitution with TMP nacells (Soucer/main hull/Nacells), which could lead to some more/better/faster ships in a certain era?

please keep up the awesome work. I have nearly 1000h in Stellaris and 3/4 went into NH

=)
Harel Jul 31, 2018 @ 12:19pm 
Felev - a system like you describe, a bit like vanilla module combination, is not possible with the way we do models.

As for more TOS ships - you will see a few more, and more with time, but most probably not the Dreadnaught class.

Spoiler - it is indeed not the right thread for this discussion. No, we're not going to double-use science ships models for some military ships as well.
Locutus von Borg Aug 2, 2018 @ 11:51am 
wow, u guys really know how to use ur tiny bit of free time :)
cant wait to see and actually play the results :)

regarding the borg (what else -.-) does that mean, they >>>probably<<< get new ships as well ?
i didnt knew they already had their own classes, though its kinda logical if i think about.
Varien Aug 6, 2018 @ 2:39pm 
Super awesome.

Little sad that all this love is going to the Federation though =( 1 ship model with little variations in shape/size would take care of the Cravic and Pralor, same with the Hirogen.

I know there isn't reference material for all of the races, but there are plenty of races that do.
Commodus Aug 7, 2018 @ 3:20am 
Kinda makes sense thou since ST is 99% the Federation and oh look and heres some other aliens:P
Tyrranus Aug 7, 2018 @ 5:35am 
this sounds absolutely epic, my only regret is this will likely mean races Id hoped to see fleshed out with their own ships and events just got kicked a year or more farther away
firespark84 Aug 7, 2018 @ 7:54am 
this just blows my mind. can you say if advanced cruisers can use eachothers advanced FTL types? ( can a crossfield use a transwarp/quantum slipstream and can a vesta class use the spore drive?)
Harel Aug 13, 2018 @ 4:50pm 
All advanced cruisers can use advanced FTL drives. That being said, the tech level of each class does restrict what they can equip.
Ruin Aug 13, 2018 @ 5:15pm 
Originally posted by Harel (suncrash):
All advanced cruisers can use advanced FTL drives. That being said, the tech level of each class does restrict what they can equip.

I'm finding this approach to be a problem, primarily I keep researching techs which unlock components I cannot use, simply because I've had shocking RNG when it comes to ship techs appearing...

I've had a single ship tech appear in some 50 years since unlocking the Bonaventure class, but did not take it at the time due to a rare tech appearing also...

Yet, I keep getting weapons techs, and only weapons techs, appearing primarily in Physics, which I simply cannot use when researching the tech...

Might I suggest that ship upgrade techs have the earliest ship (tech) they can be equipped on as a prerequisite, or perhaps increase the likelyhood (if possible) of ship techs appearing so they cycle through more often?
Last edited by Ruin; Aug 13, 2018 @ 5:18pm
Harel Aug 13, 2018 @ 9:29pm 
Ship techs already have as many prerequisites as they can logically have.
Ruin Aug 13, 2018 @ 9:57pm 
Originally posted by Harel (suncrash):
Ship techs already have as many prerequisites as they can logically have.

I was actually meaning weapon and component techs have ship techs as their prerequisite... In other words, weapon and component techs have their respective earliest available ship tech (that unlocks a ship that can use it) being a prerequisite for the weapon or component tech becoming available for research...

So, for example, if "Next Generation Phasers" cannot be used by Enterprise Era ships, and is not usable until you get XYZ Class Cruiser from the Discovery, or even TOS Era designs, then set the respective tech that unlocks XYZ Class Cruiser as a prerequisite for "Next Generation Phasers", as there's nothing stopping a new ship design using the previous generation weapons... In fact, I would imagine this to be pretty common in order to trial the ship design, before adding the latest equipment...

I really like the idea of obsolescence - I can't stress that enough -, and old ship designs should not always be able to use the latest equipment, but it's frustrating to be researching tech, after tech, after tech, just to discover I cannot use anything they unlock, simply because the ships I presently have access to (due to really bad luck with ship techs) are too primitive to use the new weapons, or components...

It just seems like alot of wasted research effort, simply because of some really bad luck, that could be counter balanced by simply not making those weapon and component techs available, until the ships themselves which can use them, have been unlocked...
Harel Aug 13, 2018 @ 10:50pm 
That will not be possible, Ruin.

Apologies, the message ended a bit abruptly as I was composing it.

Anyway... to quickly summarize what I just accidently deleted, the reason its not possible is that nearly all of those weapons, utilities and components techs are universal and not fed-specific, and thus can not be restricted for when the player research certain fed ship techs. And while yes, there are complex ways around it, every time we tried to play games with the tech tree and add more cross-dependencies and cross-field tech requirements and triggers, it backfired with players getting stuck and unable to continue to research.

I will continue to gather feedback but I am afraid that right now there is no really a way to change things here, at least until we revise things YET AGAIN when we introduce the unique ship class systems to other factions and overhaul the generic ship classes to include tech limit.
Last edited by Harel; Aug 13, 2018 @ 10:57pm
Ruin Aug 14, 2018 @ 1:05am 
Thanks for taking the time to explain this... I had actually had the thought that this (techs being universal) might be a problem after having posted about this...

I really don't know what is, and is not possible, as I am not a programmer in any shape or form, but would a better approach be something like the old system, where by era events would unlock the new appearance, instead creating a fixed new technology that can be researched?

Not sure if possible, but having it so that the tech can be obtained normally (as in randomly appearing in the research options), but if not obtained after a certain period, or meeting certain criteria (such as obtaining certain weapon/component techs), the event triggers so that it is a permanent option, and not something where you have to sit there for literally decades (as I did) before finally getting new ships?

To put this into perspective, and why I see this as a significant flaw, in what is otherwise a fantastic new feature, I have literally unlocked weapons which are beyond what I can equip on even the newest tier of ships (Hoover, Cardenas & Walker), which I have finally been able to research - the tech was that old for me, that it took about 4 months to research, where as most other Engineering techs are 12-15 months...

I'm presuming this may be a possibility, as I imagine it would work something like the NX project events, and the Enterprise upgrade events, etc?

Please don't take any of this as negative criticism, I'm big on anything that adds an additional sense of realism, and lore-freindliness, so I am actually really liking the new approach, at least in it's concept, I've just found, on my very first crack at it, that this has proven to be a significant flaw and frustration, and am hoping it could be "fine-tuned", especially before rolling it out to other empires...
Last edited by Ruin; Aug 14, 2018 @ 1:07am
Ruin Aug 14, 2018 @ 2:14am 
Just in addition to the above, I've just been inundated with new designs (all at around 4 months research, as opposed to the 10-12 of other available techs), right upto the Crossfield class, so far...

Definitely got screwed completely by the research option's RNG, so a means to smooth this out a little would be a nice feature...
Last edited by Ruin; Aug 14, 2018 @ 2:14am
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