Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Nellie:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Shadowysn:

I think clarifying the difficulties you both have used for Tank Run is needed.
Expert Tank Run relies a lot more on outrunning rather than outgunning because of the beefier tanks, and one hit from a punch or rock and you're down and likely dead at that point, so I can understand these changes for these more lethal tanks.
JAiZ had suggested me to lower the gate timer from 1 minute to 30 seconds on Tank Run, but it appears more changes would be needed.

Did clarify, got a bit anxious with the edits. We did talk about lowering time, but ultimately, can we make it different for Expert specifically? If so, we can do more testing on expert

Yes, VScript can specifically check for Expert and the mutation being played to make changes as required and leave other modes alone.
Maybe would bring up a potential issue with parity where events in the map differ depending on difficulty, but considering the massive difference in gameplay Expert TR has compared to the lower difficulty TR modes it might not be that big of an issue. But I'll defer to JAiZ's input on this just in case.

I play mostly on Advanced and Expert, the decision between running or gunning really goes to doen to how the event is. In a holdout it depends on how much space you have to work with, how many places you can climb, the amount of time you need to survive, etc.

Bots are at their worst on Tank Run since they don't really do well against multiple Tanks, oftenly getting incapped and Left Behind serving more as bait than anything, but Mike unfortunely needs to be kept alive while he is standing still using meaning that he will not try to avoid the Tanks by any means... Reducing the duration of the event like JAIZ said could really make it much more manageable overall but i'd say that like 20 seconds would probably be ideal. Only testing will tell of course.

I'd say that keeping the layout of the map the same across all difficulties is important as far as the learning process goes like playing the Campaign on Advance first and then on Expert later with the knowledge acquired.

About the Tanktrap in Chapter 2 you guys can take a look at the Tank Run Testing Initiative that me, Jack and Rayman are working on! We made scripts for Chapter 1 of Sacrifice and Chapter 3 of Death Toll to allow Special Tanks to spawn even if the limit of 8 has been met:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3080878542

Yea, we run into that issue as well... Which is why when i saw that Tank the first thing that i thought was "This event can break on Tank Run" and i was right xD

I even thought that failing to get to the Bridge in the Finale would start a 10 minutes Holdout, but looks like you guys made it impossible for that to happen in Tank Run which is okay! Gauntlet Finales are easiest ones on Tank Run

Nah Mike in Tank Run is just terrible... If someone gets incapped, which happens a lot in Tank Run and people being left behind is a common thing, he will focus entirely on trying to save that person which makes it really difficult to actually get to the area where the event starts specially if said person was further away and then there's the issues that i pointed out...

I'd prefer if Mike was dead just like in Versus, needing to rely on a bot in Tank Run specially on higher difficulties is honestly a terrible experience and a huge difficult spike compared to the other levels in the Campaign.

Just chiming in again to say that I played the latest patch last night and the fog looked MUCH better in Map 5. It blends with the sky about as well as I could hope for. I'm glad my incessant whinging could be of service

The last stand's alternate weapon skins feature also lets you add your own custom skins right? Some winterised or snow-covered weapons, and a canadian C7 (m16 with green furniture) could be fun little stylistic additions.

Also, I must say that the lack of particle effects during the blizzards did feel a little underwhelming. Any way to add something like that?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jugger:

Was not expecting there to be unique layouts for Versus and Last Man on Earth, specially the one for the mutation! It makes things flow and feel much better overall!

Kinda sad that the same thing wasn't done for Tank Run taking into consideration that is a extremely popular mutation and because of that some issues can happen such as:

• The Tanktrap event will break if the the limit of 8 Tanks has been met, you can't open the door either since it was actually supposed to be broken by a Tank spawning behind of it.
  
• Protecting Mike against Hordes of Tanks is a terrible experience overall, Tanks will oftenly knock him out and incap him, which is prove to be a overall detrimeny to the experience on higher difficulties since it's much more difficult to kill Tanks...

For Tank Run i'd say that the same map layout being used for Versus would be great:

• The fake saferoom door being already broken and there not being the event with slowmotion.
  
• Mike being already dead and you needing to deactivate a alarm instead

That would fix the issue in Chapter 2 and make Chapter 3 a overall much better experience for this mutation in particular.

Do you have an example of the differences? Can't really set up a versus game easily with my usual players.

The layout in the storage room will be a bit different and you will need to deactivate a alarm in the room where Mike died, it's the things i mentioned.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jugger:

The layout in the storage room will be a bit different and you will need to deactivate a alarm in the room where Mike died, it's the things i mentioned.

Do those same changes also appear in Last Man On Earth?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από staryoshi06:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jugger:

The layout in the storage room will be a bit different and you will need to deactivate a alarm in the room where Mike died, it's the things i mentioned.

Do those same changes also appear in Last Man On Earth?

Recently played LMOE on Cold Front, and no, they don't seem to apply there.
Instead the game uses the failsafe option of opening Mike's gate ahead of schedule and disabling Mike since LMOE disables survivor bots from spawning, and enables the failsafe electrical button on the gate that skips the event entirely.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από staryoshi06:

Also, I must say that the lack of particle effects during the blizzards did feel a little underwhelming. Any way to add something like that?

Not a dev on this campaign specifically but I think I know the answer. The version of the Source Engine that Left 4 Dead runs on does not support dense, high quality snow effects.

The types of precipitation in L4D2 include simple rain, simple snow, fancy rain (which was created specifically for L4D) and a few others. Source would eventually get fancy snow as an option, but not until CS:GO came out.

Cold Front makes extensive use of simple snow, but unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to add CS:GO's fancy snow into L4D2 because it's an engine-level change that we modders couldn't accomplish on our own.

A few suggestions for versus after playing through this campaign several times with my community:

1. Reduce the amount of wandering commons and onslaught hordes/mobs sizes etc. There just seems to be way too much horde all the time for versus.

2. Make some of the ammo & tier 2 spawns static spawns. Having to shop around for ammo & weapons all the time in versus sucks. Sometimes these maps have ammo piles every 15 ft. and sometimes no ammo for long stretches depending on the director. It would be good to have reliable known spots to restock ammo and upgrade weapons.

3. The versus completion scores could use some adjustments to scale them according to the map difficulty and distance:

• Map 1 - increase total from 300 to 500
  
• Map 2 - increase total from 500 to 600
  
• Map 3 - no change, keep at 700
  
• Map 4 - decrease total from 900 to 800
  
• Map 5 - decrease total from 1100 to 700

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από larry:

A few suggestions for versus after playing through this campaign several times with my community:

1. Reduce the amount of wandering commons and onslaught hordes/mobs sizes etc. There just seems to be way too much horde all the time for versus.

2. Make some of the ammo & tier 2 spawns static spawns. Having to shop around for ammo & weapons all the time in versus sucks. Sometimes these maps have ammo piles every 15 ft. and sometimes no ammo for long stretches depending on the director. It would be good to have reliable known spots to restock ammo and upgrade weapons.

3. The versus completion scores could use some adjustments to scale them according to the map difficulty and distance:

• Map 1 - increase total from 300 to 500
  
• Map 2 - increase total from 500 to 600
  
• Map 3 - no change, keep at 700
  
• Map 4 - decrease total from 900 to 800
  
• Map 5 - decrease total from 1100 to 700

As mentioned in the changelogs the reason why the scores are like that is to make losses early in the campaign less punishing and as the chapters goes there are higher chances of comebacks since the difference between chapter is higher!

Really cool the ideas that they experimented with in this Campaign, like CSS Snipers being used as Tier 1 Weapons! A idea that's suggested by community sometimes.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από staryoshi06:

The last stand's alternate weapon skins feature also lets you add your own custom skins right? Some winterised or snow-covered weapons, and a canadian C7 (m16 with green furniture) could be fun little stylistic additions.

Also, I must say that the lack of particle effects during the blizzards did feel a little underwhelming. Any way to add something like that?

The snowy skins would be possible, but would also conflict with many mods, so I'd prefer to not modify the skins and let players decide what they want the items to look like.

I have some potential methods in mind to add to the snowstorm, but they have yet to be prototyped and tested, so I have no idea if they'll even work.
Like Kyle mentioned, the snow effect in L4D is not very flexible. Even in map 1, where it looks like it becomes more dense as you progress, it was done by splitting it up into multiple entities spanning different areas that each have different density values, rather than actually changing the density over time.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από larry:

A few suggestions for versus after playing through this campaign several times with my community:

1. Reduce the amount of wandering commons and onslaught hordes/mobs sizes etc. There just seems to be way too much horde all the time for versus.

2. Make some of the ammo & tier 2 spawns static spawns. Having to shop around for ammo & weapons all the time in versus sucks. Sometimes these maps have ammo piles every 15 ft. and sometimes no ammo for long stretches depending on the director. It would be good to have reliable known spots to restock ammo and upgrade weapons.

3. The versus completion scores could use some adjustments to scale them according to the map difficulty and distance:

• Map 1 - increase total from 300 to 500
  
• Map 2 - increase total from 500 to 600
  
• Map 3 - no change, keep at 700
  
• Map 4 - decrease total from 900 to 800
  
• Map 5 - decrease total from 1100 to 700

I'd prefer to leave the wanderers as they are, since the campaign uses the default values, so it's the same as the official maps, except at the start of map 1 where a temporary script limits the amount of infected until a survivor leaves the dock.
The points also seem pretty good to me for vanilla versus, based on the playthroughs I've watched. To my knowledge, server owners can modify both the wanderers and chapter scores in configs, so I'll leave the balancing to that, since there's going to be a lot of different ideas for the best way to balance each map, though if there's any adjustments I can implement to make this sort of finetuning easier, let me know (like adding logic_relays, or modifying entities, etc. to make things more accessible)

The events on the other hand can have different values based on the active gamemode.
My intention for the events is to give survivors the option of holding out or rushing. Holding out is the safer option, but slows down progress, whereas rushing allows for faster progress, but carries the risks of the lingering horde.
These are the current (not yet implemented) values for the events in Versus, let me know if you have any specific suggestions for changes:

Map 1:
MobSpawnMinTime = 1
MobSpawnMaxTime = 3

MobMinSize = 8
MobMaxSize = 15
MobMaxPending = 5

SustainPeakMinTime = 2
SustainPeakMaxTime = 6
IntensityRelaxThreshold = 0.9
RelaxMinInterval = 2
RelaxMaxInterval = 4
RelaxMaxFlowTravel = 50

CommonLimit = 20

PreferredMobDirection = SPAWN_BEHIND_SURVIVORS
ZombieSpawnRange = 2100
(Lasts about 1 minute)


Map 2:
MobSpawnMinTime = 1
MobSpawnMaxTime = 2

MobMinSize = 15
MobMaxSize = 20
MobMaxPending = 30

SustainPeakMinTime = 6
SustainPeakMaxTime = 8
IntensityRelaxThreshold = 0.9
RelaxMinInterval = 2
RelaxMaxInterval = 4
RelaxMaxFlowTravel = 100

CommonLimit = 25

PreferredMobDirection = SPAWN_NO_PREFERENCE
ZombieSpawnRange = 1500
(Lasts about 30 seconds)


Map 3:
MobSpawnMinTime = 1
MobSpawnMaxTime = 2

MobMinSize = 5
MobMaxSize = 15
MobMaxPending = 30

SustainPeakMinTime = 2
SustainPeakMaxTime = 6
IntensityRelaxThreshold = 0.9
RelaxMinInterval = 2
RelaxMaxInterval = 5
RelaxMaxFlowTravel = 10

CommonLimit = 20

PreferredMobDirection = SPAWN_ANYWHERE
ZombieSpawnRange = 2500
(Lasts until the first panel is interacted with)

Any plans for the Chapter 3 on Tank Run? Mike can be a extremely annoyance in many since dealing with bots in this mutation is quite troublesome... Many times when playing Mike would focus entirely on saving someone that was left behind as soon as you met with him resulting in his early death! Leaving people behind is a extremely common practice in Tank Run specially with Bots since they oftenly have the worst possible ideas and worst timing that you could ever imagine.

Problem gets even bigger on Expert.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jugger:

Any plans for the Chapter 3 on Tank Run? Mike can be a extremely annoyance in many since dealing with bots in this mutation is quite troublesome... Many times when playing Mike would focus entirely on saving someone that was left behind as soon as you met with him resulting in his early death! Leaving people behind is a extremely common practice in Tank Run specially with Bots since they oftenly have the worst possible ideas and worst timing that you could ever imagine.

Problem gets even bigger on Expert.

Yeah, most things reported and suggested are already implemented. There's just a lot of other stuff being worked on as well, and it all needs to be thoroughly tested, so I can't update the files yet.