Slay the Spire

Slay the Spire

Relica
Walux  [developer] Jan 7, 2024 @ 11:20am
Balance Discussion
Discuss here how Relica can be further balanced.
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Showing 1-15 of 26 comments
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 12:01pm 
First thing that comes to mind is that IMO a central mechanic shouldn't rely on the starter relic, as that can be swapped out. Instead the card -> relic transform should always be available as an option, and the starter relic can improve it (e.g. reduce number of spirit poop curses gained by 1 when transforming, or reduce damage taken from spirit poop, or make spirit poop ethereal, or ...).
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 12:29pm 
DarkStone Periapt not functioning for Spirit Poop is weird / counter-intuitive - I understand the balance issue, but there are other (IMO better) ways to address this. Some ideas:
1) Switch the DarkStone Periapt starter cards with cards based on a different relic. This would make Darkstone Periapt harder to obtain.
2) Disable curse transformations.
3) Disable transformations for which you already have the target relic.
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 12:40pm 
Not sure if this is a bug or a balance issue, but Cultist Mask being a rare card with no effect (or at least no description) seems a little under-powered.
Walux  [developer] Jan 7, 2024 @ 3:14pm 
Thank you Sagil for the great input. You raised some very solid arguments and I look forward for more. I strongly agree with the main mechanic being reliant on the starter relic is a bad design : that makes swapping it for a boss Relic very unhealthy for the mod. Expect a patch soon adressing some overall adjustments.
Last edited by Walux; Jan 7, 2024 @ 3:15pm
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 4:18pm 
I've been thinking a bit more about the #transform curses based on rarity/type which seems mildly complex and treats starter cards different despite being just "common relic" type cards.

You could introduce a "tainted" flag that some card instances may have while others do not (similar to the upgraded flag). The only effect of that flag would be that it produces a spirit poop curse when transformed. You could then balance things around making cards tainted:
* starter cards (which may have common rarity) and spirit poop are always tainted
* common / uncommon card drops have a 66% / 33% chance of being tainted

Could also add additional mechanics around this, e.g.
* transforming an upgraded card reduces the amount of spirit poop gained from the transform (this balances the loss of a stronger card)
Last edited by Sagil; Jan 7, 2024 @ 4:19pm
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 8:09pm 
Currently the "upgrade all strikes and defends" option from Ancient Writings event does nothing, as starter cards are not marked as basic strikes or defends. Maybe consider some tweaks to that event, or mark starter cards as basic strikes/defends.
Sagil Jan 7, 2024 @ 8:32pm 
Strike Dummy might make a better starter strike - transform it to gain a relic that no longer helps you much ... :lunar2019crylaughingpig:
Walux  [developer] Jan 7, 2024 @ 11:40pm 
Okey, the "tainted" idea is way too cool. Look forward to it. Also thank you for the gentle reminder to add Basic Strike/Defend tags to starter cards. It should also make Pandora viable.
Last edited by Walux; Jan 7, 2024 @ 11:40pm
Zenog Jan 10, 2024 @ 11:46am 
I haven't run into any balance issues so far, but I've also not seen cards for a couple different relics - Runic Dome and Centennial Puzzle are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head, but there might be others. Circlet Form also seems way rarer than other rare cards. That might just have been my seed, but I also had the Command artifact on from Risk of Relics, so I was seeing 20 cards at card rewards instead of just 3 and I didn't ever see it even in boss rewards.

Originally posted by Sagil:
Not sure if this is a bug or a balance issue, but Cultist Mask being a rare card with no effect (or at least no description) seems a little under-powered.
You should check the upgrade for it, but also, un-upgraded, it makes you "CAW! CAAAW" X times, which is *definitely* worth it.
dandap2009 Jan 10, 2024 @ 12:31pm 
Originally posted by Zenog:

Originally posted by Sagil:
Not sure if this is a bug or a balance issue, but Cultist Mask being a rare card with no effect (or at least no description) seems a little under-powered.
You should check the upgrade for it, but also, un-upgraded, it makes you "CAW! CAAAW" X times, which is *definitely* worth it.

I see you posted this 40 minutes ago, but as of 5 minutes ago, in my run, the un-upgraded version of Cultist Mask says "Gain 2X strength"
Zenog Jan 10, 2024 @ 4:38pm 
Originally posted by dandap2009:
Originally posted by Zenog:


You should check the upgrade for it, but also, un-upgraded, it makes you "CAW! CAAAW" X times, which is *definitely* worth it.

I see you posted this 40 minutes ago, but as of 5 minutes ago, in my run, the un-upgraded version of Cultist Mask says "Gain 2X strength"
Yeah I think it got hotfixed literally *while* I was writing that, because it had no effect unupgraded in my run I played right before, I closed the game to change around some mods and made that post, and then it had an effect when I launched again right after lmao
Nekomancer Jan 11, 2024 @ 8:41am 
I feel that there isn't enough cards that doesn't exhaust. I did beat heart on my first play through, but it is done using frost orbs and focus ,and some strength given by curiosity. After I put everything in play I am left with mostly starting deck cards.

I think you need to increase the percentage of attack and block generating cards in the card pool. For example ironclad has 32 attack cards. Even defect has more than 15 attack cards which are solid and does not exhaust. I think it is reasonable to change the cards a little for better balance even if it less corresponds to the relic effect. Just a general idea, i need to think a bit more for examples and details.

and then the option to turn 3 cards into relic is just not worth it. Would not do it even as a free action because if you add a card to deck, it means it is a good card, you don't want to delete good cards. I think turning 1 card into a relic is better.

At last, it will be cool if:
1. cards trigger additional effect if you own an identical relic. (the current effect that upgrades cards based on relics barely triggers at all)
2. when Relica gets a relic from chest/elite, she gets to choose from 3 relics. (to let cards and identical relics match more often)

Really like this mod, might be back for more detailed suggestions on specific cards later:haruchin:
Sage the Drifter Jan 11, 2024 @ 9:32am 
really love the concept and a lot of fun to play this character!
Does feel like defence is a bit rare/hard to get by, especially in the early game. Is this intended?
Anyone else getting the same experience or just my bad luck? XD
Last edited by Sage the Drifter; Jan 11, 2024 @ 9:33am
Walux  [developer] Jan 11, 2024 @ 10:31am 
Originally posted by ZY:
I feel that there isn't enough cards that doesn't exhaust. I did beat heart on my first play through, but it is done using frost orbs and focus ,and some strength given by curiosity. After I put everything in play I am left with mostly starting deck cards.

I think you need to increase the percentage of attack and block generating cards in the card pool. For example ironclad has 32 attack cards. Even defect has more than 15 attack cards which are solid and does not exhaust. I think it is reasonable to change the cards a little for better balance even if it less corresponds to the relic effect. Just a general idea, i need to think a bit more for examples and details.

and then the option to turn 3 cards into relic is just not worth it. Would not do it even as a free action because if you add a card to deck, it means it is a good card, you don't want to delete good cards. I think turning 1 card into a relic is better.

At last, it will be cool if:
1. cards trigger additional effect if you own an identical relic. (the current effect that upgrades cards based on relics barely triggers at all)
2. when Relica gets a relic from chest/elite, she gets to choose from 3 relics. (to let cards and identical relics match more often)

Really like this mod, might be back for more detailed suggestions on specific cards later:haruchin:

Beautiful input @ZY, expect improvements soon. Mainly less Exhaust, more Block, and a new Keyword that makes some random card drafts require one less copy for infusion.
Walux  [developer] Jan 11, 2024 @ 5:35pm 
Experiment with the new Eternal keyword. Cards have a chance to spawn with it in card rewards and shops (and Neow bonuses).

Eternal cards are not removed after using them in Infusions ! (Infusions prioritize Eternal copies.)
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