Slay the Spire

Slay the Spire

[Arknights] Margaret Nearl
Terratrox Mar 24, 2024 @ 10:21pm
Nearl Review: Immediacy and Scale
So I played some Nearl, and here's what I thought. Broadly speaking, Nearl is INCREDIBLY weak. Her cards focus on adding effects that happen later instead of the turn you play them. They cost too much for their effects, even if they were immediate, and she doesn't have powerful enough options to keep her alive reliably even when against regular Spire enemies.

Her Friends mechanic is similar to Defect's orbs. But the problem with Friends is the cards that summon them are often 2 energy AND don't immediately affect the game. The one Friend summoning card that does, Whislash, only does so when upgraded. Even with Whislash's immediacy, it's analogous to Ironclad's Flex card. Flex is regarded as one of Ironclad's worst cards.

How the mechanic works right now, you spend almost your whole turn doing nothing, then have to spend MORE energy later to get an effect analogous to a base character's common cards. The Friends cards are all too expensive for their effects and many are underpowered, even if they all costed 1 less energy. Some just don't work properly, like Sanctuary I think is supposed to give you block multiple times, or grant DP or something. It just gives 10 block.

The cards aren't always something you'd want to use, which is fine. But they need to be more powerful because of that. We've already invested energy to get these cards. They should be more powerful than normal, not equal to, or even in some cases weaker than, base character cards. This is especially true considering the cards aren't added to the deck and instead are created randomly. What cards are available to the player on a given turn is completely up to chance, and there's every possibility that the cards we're given don't give an effect we want.

(Also, just from a definition standpoint, add Ethereal and Exhaust to all the Friend cards, [just Ethereal to the powers] since that's how they interact when played.)

The Friends need more immediacy. All of them should do SOMETHING beneficial the turn they're played. And that effect has to be good enough to justify their cost. You're spending most of your turn playing this summon card, in a game where fights are designed to be either stabilized or over with in around 4 turns.

One way to fix this would be to offer the Unique Friend Cards to be played for 0 energy as soon as you play the summon card. That would add immediacy to the effect while still keeping the unique cards interesting. It would also allow for interactions with effects like Time Eater's or Violet Choker's, where the number of cards you play matters.

Generally speaking, I'd also decrease the cost of most of the Friend Cards, since they're a reward for investing energy earlier in the fight and again, fights are functionally over in around 4 turns or even less. Some of them also need to have their numbers tweaked so they're stronger than base characters' cards because again, their availability is entirely up to chance. They also don't scale off of your strength and dex, which is an issue of its own because it clashes with the Stance mechanic. But that's a separate thing.

The promotion idea would make sense in a game where fights go on for awhile, but again we're investing energy to invest energy to invest energy in a game where energy is incredibly precious and fights are quick. But again, it scales too slowly to make sense.

Trust levels could be made cumulative for the run, but I think that's a bad place to take the mechanic. You could either make Trust a stat like Focus, where it affects ALL your friends, or you could just remove the concept altogether and make the friend cards scale off your strength and dexterity. Either one works, but I'd recommend they scale off strength and dexterity.

Nearl already has a lot of things going on. Having additional things to juggle makes her clunkier. Duplicate Friend Summoning cards could maybe be transformed into a Friend card of the relevant character if you got rid of trust as a mechanic.

It would also be nice to see the friends do something passively like Defect's orbs do, but I don't know enough about Arknights to give suggestions on who does what. Making Trust a stat like Focus would work well if you did end up giving them passives, as the Trust would affect the intensity of the passive.

On the subject of Stances, we have the problem of immediacy again. The mechanic gives benefits when you change stances, so the player is incentivized to change stances as quickly and as much as possible. But there isn't enough support for that to happen. There aren't cheap cards that reliably change your stance. So it's likely that you'll maybe generate 1 strength from the mechanic for a few turns and hit 2 later on. But again, fights are over within around 4 turns. So the mechanic won't affect the game that much before the fight is over.

Even with cheap stance changing cards, unlike Watcher, the effects for being in a stance are very, VERY small unless you've swapped many times. I'd fix this by rebalancing the cards that change stance so they can be used more often, and have the bonus for changing stances not go away. So every time you switch, you permanently gain 1 strength or 1 dexterity. If you like the concept of growing stances, have the stance also grant its bonus EVERY turn, not only when you switch.

So if you start in Guardian stance, you start with +1 dexterity, and then at the start of your turn you gain another dexterity. If you switch, you immediately gain +1 strength, and at the start of your turn, you gain another strength. But you KEEP the 2 dexterity from before.

Now there's a benefit to staying in a stance over time in addition to an advantage to switching. Switching stances also gains much more immediacy because you're not losing out on half your benefits when you switch. Combine this with a cost reduction for stance changing cards, and you end up with a foundation for a decent deck that can still perform OK in the few turns fights last.

An example of how this is done well is The Champ (I think he's part of the Downfall mod last I checked.) His stances dramatically affect how his cards work instead of giving him stat buffs. But the point is that his stances have a great deal of cheap and reliable support that can be added to your deck so you can be in the stance you want to be in, when you want to be in it.

On the subject of Light, I think Light is an interesting but ultimately shortsighted mechanic. Because Light is the definition of a lack of immediacy. Either it's "add + block to a later card" or "add + damage to a later card". Again, in a game where fights should be over in around 4 turns, doing things "later" is a really, really bad idea. Cards that interact with Light generally want you to stockpile it instead of using it. So you want to push all your effects later and later and later and look! The fight was over with 3 turns ago!

Light needs to do something while you're holding it for this kind of stockpiling effect to make sense in a fast game. Light needs to do something other than just being "extra damage or extra block". Maybe instead of spending it, it's a buff that you stockpile infinitely and the amount you have at the end of the fight determines what it does. For example, if you gain 10 or more, you get +1 max HP. 20 or more and you upgrade a random card. ETC. You could even have it start the next fight with extra temporary HP or start with Vigor or something. (Permanent buffs should be considered better than 'next battle' buffs though). This is the immediacy problem again, so cards that generate Light need to be good enough that the Light they make is NOT considered for balancing purposes.

Alternatively, you gather Light throughout the fight and the amount you have permanently buffs cards that interact with it for the fight. So your cards have "levels" that change based on how much light you have. Again, immediacy is still a problem, so they'd need to be buffed to do something significant without the Light part. Cost reductions and number tweaks would fix them most of the time.

I personally like the idea of Light as something that grants buffs to your run, because it makes Nearl more powerful the longer the run goes on. You could even take it a third direction and have Light be cumulative between fights, where the benefits you get accumulate on a second Starter Relic. That way, you can do things like start fights with extra strength or dexterity, or draw extra cards, etc.

The reason these proposed solutions all still have the immediacy problem is because the Light is acting to add something different to Nearl's gameplay. She begins to scale. She literally becomes more powerful the longer the run goes on. So Light becomes this meta resource that she generates as she goes. It adds a bit more spice to her gameplay, in addition for helping her meet the problem I'm addressing next.

The last thing to talk about is Nearl's Arena fights, which are a problem because of how weak Nearl herself is. Said fights are far more dangerous than Elite and Boss fights of the regular Spire are for where they are in the run. The base characters are all more powerful than Nearl right now, and I couldn't see the base characters handling the arena fights. They're almost universally lethal because of how early they show up in the run and how much more powerful they are than anything around them.

Imagine fighting the Slavers from the Act 2 Elite fight on your third room of the run, and you'll start to see the problem. I built a custom made upgraded deck to face them (courtesy of a different mod) and I STILL lost to the fights post-championship. And I'm not new or bad at this game. I can make runs at the Heart of the Spire on Ascension 20. My ability to pilot a deck is quite high. (Mods should NOT be balanced to my ability to pilot. That is, a mod shouldn't be balanced so that a player at my skill level has a hard time beating most of its challenges on low Ascensions. It should be beatable by people who have a hard time beating Ascension 2.)

I'm not saying the arena fights need to be nerfed. But Nearl needs to be made significantly more powerful to match their challenge. General cost reductions, number tweaks, and the change in design concept that I was talking about (make cards do things then and there instead of waiting for later turns, and increase your scaling so it affects fights in a reasonable timeframe) would get Nearl to the point that she may be able to take on the arena fights. She can be stronger overall than the base characters. She'd have to be because the arena fights are more difficult than the Heart is.

Oh and one specific effect should be tweaked. Exsanguination should set Strength to 0 if it's positive and prevent the character from gaining strength instead of limiting it to 0 or less. That would give it synergy with cards like Lance Charge that temporarily reduce strength. Maybe it also causes them to lose 1 strength every turn. Because as it stands, there aren't many enemies that gain a ton of strength where Exsanguination would make a difference. It takes so much effort to get the card that grants it that it should be able to be more powerful.

Interestingly, it DOES work the way I described if it's used against Nearl, because Dreadnought stance's strength gain will get nullified, and when you swap back to Guardian, you lose strength. So if you have +5 from Dreadnought and get hit with Exsanguination, swapping to Guardian reduces your strength to -5. (The suggestions I made for the stance mechanic would fix this though)

Overall, I like the mod. But I feel like there's a misstep in design that made Nearl a lot weaker than she should be. Some of my suggestions would fix a lot of her problems.
Last edited by Terratrox; Mar 24, 2024 @ 10:54pm
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Showing 1-4 of 4 comments
absi2011  [developer] Mar 25, 2024 @ 11:03am 
Thank you for your feedback.

I think she is stronger than the Watcher. Don't be so surprised. I tried Neral A20 about 15 times. Only once I lose in Spear And Shield and once in The Book in act II.

Her initial relic can store unbroken block to temp HP, that make her have another way to play this game. First survive, then attack.

She really can use block to defend the monsters(except the Arena 1). She can have a long turn to fight, and use Invisible ability to get start(include the card Way Of Champion, as you say). It is normal to have 10 turns with some tough enemies.

Arena 1 is special, you are given 15 strength(use Artifact to counter "Die in 2 turns"), you can find your strike can deal 22 damage.

After Arena 1, you can pick more defend cards. When you have free energy, use it to attack.

Mostly, enter Arena 2 times in an act is best (If you really need damage, fight Viviana in Act I is OK). You can have 1 less because the 6-th Arena does not worth to fight. The arena counter is fixed, not decided by which act you are currently in.

Anyway, thanks for playing and feedback.
Terratrox Mar 25, 2024 @ 12:18pm 
Originally posted by absi2011:
Yeah, this is how you'd normally pilot a character. But her cards are all overcosted for their effects, and the things you're listing are a few, very specific cards that work for a given scenario. The Slimebound had a similar problem, where every single run you wanted to have the same 2 or 3 cards in deck to be able to handle the challenges. When you don't get those things, you run into trouble.

Also she's nowhere near as strong as the Watcher. The Watcher is an easy win against the A20 Heart most of the time because being able to do double damage whenever you want for 0 energy is incredibly powerful.

She's not even as strong as the Defect, because Defect's scaling can accelerate, and it's faster. In 10 turns, a scaling focused (bad) Defect deck will be several times stronger than Nearl is. It can play all of its cards twice for free, gain 70+ block every single turn or deal 70+ damage every turn, it can be immune to damage from buffers, draw 3 or 4 extra cards...

A single Defect power gives him the equivalent of 16 permanent Thorns for 1 energy. And that power is considered a bad pick because it's too weak. Defect has a 0 energy skill that gives him 10 block. For free. And for one that doesn't exhaust, he can gain 6 or 8 block for free. Defect has an attack that deals 30+ damage and costs 0 energy if it's fatal, and it's considered to be an OK pick because it's not strong enough. Nearl doesn't have anything in her kit that is even close to that powerful.

You don't need to use artifact to counter the debuff on the first arena fight btw. If you use both of them, the duration doubles to 4 turns, which again is where the fight should be over with anyway.

Like I said, she's designed for long fights in a game where long fights are incredibly detrimental to you. After 10 turns, sure she's strong enough to deal with the Spire enemies. But fights don't last 10 turns. She doesn't have the survivability to deal with... say Nemesis, which can hit for 45 damage every other turn starting on turn 2.

Her starting relic stores FIVE block to convert to temporary HP. So surviving then attacking doesn't work because at most you're storing 5 block a turn. Even in a 10 turn fight, you're only storing 50 damage worth of HP. And again, you're investing energy to invest energy to invest energy.

Normal spire enemies can hit for 50 damage in a single turn. What about the other 9 turns? Storing block is a decent idea, but it's not useful enough to build a strategy around, since 3 turns of storage can be undone by a single decent hit from an Act 1 normal Spire enemy.

Also, the 3 cards? that give invulnerability are massively overcosted because Intangible exists. Taking Apparition is considered relatively powerful even at the cost of half your max HP in the base game because spending 1 energy to make yourself functionally immune to damage that turn is strong. Spending 3 energy to do that is a waste of time unless you're facing lethal damage, which points to you waiting too long or having built a bad deck. Because if you're facing lethal damage now, you're probably going to be facing that lethal damage next turn as well. So you just spent your turn doing nothing so you could die 1 turn later.

If you're balancing the Arenas to be fought twice an Act, the rewards need to be better than "a normal card" or even "a slightly more powerful than normal card". Because at that point, they're competing against the Elites, which are not only easier, but grant Relics as a reward.

Hell, Way to the Championship is a worse reward than Friend Shelter is. Friend Shelter is just Apparition. Give 1 turn of Intangible for 1 energy. Way to the Championship is a worse version of Silent's Form power, since it's 3 energy for 1 turn of intangible when upgraded, while Silent's Form is 3 energy for 3 turns of intangible when upgraded. The downside isn't important because the fight should be over within a turn or so of the Intangible expiring. And again, Silent's Form power is considered mediocre, as most 3 cost cards are.
Last edited by Terratrox; Mar 25, 2024 @ 2:17pm
absi2011  [developer] Mar 26, 2024 @ 1:27am 
In fact, she can gain 45+ blocks in a turn, you may choose more cards to switch stance, or get help of friends.

For example, BlemiShine will give you HP restore for EVERY battle, if you want. Viviana provides you the ability to transform light and shadow, the light can transform into block. Nightangle will give you Sanctuary, half damage means you only need half block. Even if enemies didn't attack you, you may try Sanctuary to store block for next turn.

BlemiShine can also give you Craftman's Echo, which can give you 3 dex, you may think it does worse than Silent's power, but this can be used more than one times. Did you try defect with 14 dex? In this way, Defend can provide you 19 blocks, and 3 defend can easily defend 57 damage.

Way to the Championship is worse than Friend Shelter, indeed. But this also limit the enemies strength. This counters almost every boss: Heart, Time Eater, Awaken One, and if you can break the artifact, Donu and Deca can also be limited. And this card do not give you Dex-1 every turn, so it can be used in ANY time. You can consider it as Vault.

Friend Shelter is much more stronger than other cards, as the reward of saving BlemiShine from Tora. Don't just compare with this.

You can choose enter or not enter the Arena, by switching route. Just balance by yourself.

1st and 2nd Arena is weaker than Elite of Act I, 3rd Arena is less powerful than Elite of Act II, 4th Arena is weaker than Elite of Act III, 5th Arena is the Boss, and maybe weaker than Boss of Act III if you have long battle. (You can trust Viviana, she helps you to deal damage and you only defend is OK)

Also, she has more energy in a specific way: 5-th Arena provide you another boss relic.
Terratrox Mar 30, 2024 @ 11:29am 
Originally posted by absi2011:
In fact, she can gain 45+ blocks in a turn, you may choose more cards to switch stance, or get help of friends.

For example, BlemiShine will give you HP restore for EVERY battle, if you want. Viviana provides you the ability to transform light and shadow, the light can transform into block. Nightangle will give you Sanctuary, half damage means you only need half block. Even if enemies didn't attack you, you may try Sanctuary to store block for next turn.

BlemiShine can also give you Craftman's Echo, which can give you 3 dex, you may think it does worse than Silent's power, but this can be used more than one times. Did you try defect with 14 dex? In this way, Defend can provide you 19 blocks, and 3 defend can easily defend 57 damage.

Way to the Championship is worse than Friend Shelter, indeed. But this also limit the enemies strength. This counters almost every boss: Heart, Time Eater, Awaken One, and if you can break the artifact, Donu and Deca can also be limited. And this card do not give you Dex-1 every turn, so it can be used in ANY time. You can consider it as Vault.

Friend Shelter is much more stronger than other cards, as the reward of saving BlemiShine from Tora. Don't just compare with this.

You can choose enter or not enter the Arena, by switching route. Just balance by yourself.

1st and 2nd Arena is weaker than Elite of Act I, 3rd Arena is less powerful than Elite of Act II, 4th Arena is weaker than Elite of Act III, 5th Arena is the Boss, and maybe weaker than Boss of Act III if you have long battle. (You can trust Viviana, she helps you to deal damage and you only defend is OK)

Also, she has more energy in a specific way: 5-th Arena provide you another boss relic.
45+ Block per turn isn't a lot of block though. And to get there, you need to invest a LOT of energy.

Blemishine can give you HP restore, yes. But only after investing energy to invest more energy. Craftsman's Echo isn't worse than Silent's form power. Silent's form power makes her immune to damage for 2 - 3 turns, and that card is considered mediocre because it's 3 energy and doesn't do enough to waste a full turn on.

Craftsman's Echo is worse than Ironclad's Inflame. Because it costs twice as much energy for the same gain. You can get it more than once, but again you're investing energy to invest energy to invest energy. You use Inflame because you can use it AND do other things that turn. You can't do that with Craftsman's Echo.

Way to the Championship counters strength gain IF you can get around artifact. But again, you're investing energy to do something LATER. In a game where later is fatal. Even without strength gain, the Heart's going to be swinging in for... what 80 damage every third turn? And you just wasted 1 of those 3 turns doing nothing instead of scaling.

Time Eater's strength gain isn't the thing that makes Time Eater strong. It's the 'forcibly ending your turn' part that makes him dangerous. You could take away his strength in the base game and he'd still mess up 0 decks because 0 decks play so many cards per turn.

Donu and Deca's strength gain makes them more dangerous, but they ALSO start with Artifact, so you have to invest energy to remove the artifact to invest energy to remove their strength gain. And that still hasn't stopped them from smacking you for 26 for every turn you're investing.

ETC. Strength gain isn't a problem in the Spire. The reason you'd limit strength gain is so it comboes with temporary strength loss. So you could in theory debuff enemies with negative strength.

'Think of it like Vault'. OK. Vault is a TERRIBLE card. Its purpose is "draw a new hand" in almost all cases.

Defect doesn't NEED 14 dex. Defect can use 2 energy and get more block than that, just from having extra orb slots, a lot of Frost generation, and Biased Cognition. That's the problem. Defect can do it without even spending all his energy in ONE turn. Nearl needs 3 or 4 turns of setup.

Friend Shelter is strong, but it's just Apparition again. Apparition is considered good. It's not anything ridiculously OP. What makes that event so strong is you get FIVE of them. So I SHOULD be comparing against Apparition. Because 1 apparition is just a good thing to have.

Out of all of Nearl's cards, do you know which is the strongest?

It's Offense Defense. Why? Because it's a common that gets you scaling RIGHT NOW. The issue is that you need many in your deck for that scaling to get out of control quickly enough to match the Spire's pacing.

Her playstyle is turtling in a game where turtling isn't effective. She's like Defect's Power setup, except she scales slower. And Defect's Power setup is BAD.

The bottom line is, she plays like the other characters, except she's on A0 or A1, and the others are on A7 or A8. She doesn't do anything quickly enough for it to make a difference when fights are short, and her whole kit is about drawing fights out as long as possible. It shouldn't require that much skill to beat runs with her on A0 or A1.

At A19 and A20, she's just a lot weaker than the other characters because she doesn't HAVE 10 turns to get up to 14 strength and dex and start smacking things around. I've now beaten the Heart with her on A20. But it took a miracle run to get it done because of how weak she is whenever she doesn't have a 10 or 15 turn combat to spin up.
Last edited by Terratrox; Mar 30, 2024 @ 11:33am
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