Dota 2
Battleships
Ciel.R Dec 31, 2017 @ 11:03pm
Suggestion/Rant to balance Game
This is going to be a rant or suggestion depending on how you take it. But I played battleship when it was first created in WC3. The game was relatively balanced until Sked decided to pass it to suppressor, who made a lot of change that was questionable but was still great, then came the random versions that are like garbage but took popularity, many of whom had items that made absolute no sense.

So what did Sked did right.
Damage and item balancing
Longer range item > Stand further > Lesser risk > Lesser Damage
Lesser range item > Stand closer > More Risk > More Damage

Stronger version of the item typically have less DPS/Gold. Why? Because your item space is limited. You can either buy 4 of the same lvl 1 item, that probably cost 200 each and deal more damage than one lvl 2 item that cost 800. You can't keep buying the same item, so you could choose to sell and upgrade, or stack multiple items. Making inventory management important because its a trade off.

Rapid firing also often has lesser dmg then those with long reloads. Rationale behind this is strategy. Rapid firing ship may hide with other ships when vs long reload ships, making it very difficult for long reload ship to hit them properly, hence the damage offset this effect.

Items with abilities, although only a few, tend to cost more per DPS than any item due to their ultilities

Ship balancing
3 main class of ships:
High HP, Low Spd, skill focus on capturing or slow
Low HP, High Spd, skill focus on fast manuveur and positioning
Avg HP, Avg Spd, skill focus on ultilities, damage etc.

Stuff Suppressor did
He mainly added new mods to the game that upsets the balancing of gold distribution and overall game play. Making certain scenarios very advantages.(Luckily he didnt touch normal mode)

He made very little changes to item overall also introducing combination of hull, repair and mast.(I am unsure) which was a huge improvement in freeing up space. I think he also added safe guards for noobs incase they buy 2 mast etc.

He made it possible to upgrade the alliance tower and through some convoluted way rebuild it. Both of this was a failure, because the effort didnt justify the result. Upgrading towers were not cost effective at all. Rebuilding tower was really difficult because you had to do a difficult mission.

He introduce new ultilities-based ships. most were fun to play but not practical at all in dollar terms but it was balanced and offer different playstyle.

What did other game did wrong?
This list is going to be very very very very long

Combining items instead of selling them. Because financial planning are actually important in the game. When you can combine an item, you don't have to worry about depreciating them for long, instead, you can just keep building that item. This take out any form of financial decision that you need to take. You also cannot change play style halfway to suit the competition because its a 50% penalty which you wouldnt need to incur if you stick with it.

Stronger version of the same type of weapon are higher in DPS/Gold. Yup this throw the entire game out of the equation, because player who kill more, has more gold, has stronger item and grow exponentially. And in games where its 3vs5, the 3 are significantly overpowered than the 5.

Longer range has longer dps and low reload. Yes I ♥♥♥♥ you not, there was one version, where everyone just buy that item and hide behind the rocks. This version was crazy popular and everyone had a the same playstyle. Where's the fun in that?

Ships with AutoAttack on expensive ship that worth half the ship price. So on top of upgrading your ship, you get a free cannon that doesnt take up a slot thats worth half your ship, naturally i dont have to explain why this isnt balanced.

Huge damage Skill shot that require aiming. There was one version where they had a ship that was 1000 gold or so. and it could sink the starting ship with one single skill shot. They said it was fair because you need to aim. Naturally everyone bought the same ship and there was only one early game play style in that game. I would have play pudge war if I wanted this.

Lots and lots of item. Yes as much as 9 shops including 3 secret shops. Most of the items werent balanced at all.

Conclusion
A game is only fair if there is a need for trade off.

Trading off HP for speed.
Trading Risk for higher dmg.
Sell and Upgrade now or stack weapon and upgrade later.
Changing ship vs buying mast/hp.
Trading ultilties for pure damage.

I really like the idea of a reboot on battleships, but as it stands, the game offer no advantages in different build. You might consider downloading the last version of Sked, and based your items cost and spec over his. I did a lot of maths back in highschool on his items, and found it to be really balanced. I hope this help you. If you need further explanation, I would gladly provide.
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Frood  [developer] Jan 19, 2018 @ 6:15am 
Hey Ciel.R,

Thanks for taking the time to write this up! I'll start by saying that the primary basis for this game was EdgeCrusher's battleships high seas, though we had played many other versions, including Crossfire, which I believe is Sked's version.



Alot fo your points are valid, however, they leave out an important factor that we've kept in mind throughout the development of Battleships: It has always been very important to us that the game remains fun and easy for a player their first time, without tons of strategies that they need to discover to compete.


For example, the idea to sell back items instead of combining them: Yes, as an experienced player, it would be really cool to be able to transition from one weapon tree to another. However, practically, we feel this would punish newer players. Knowing which trees are best to start with, when to switch to which other tree in response to which choices made by both team mates and enemies adds layers of complexity that we don't want a newer player to need to deal with. I admit that in a competitive setting, sell back could be considered (there are a few other drawbacks I won't get into), but for a game with the design goal of Battleships, it would be counterproductive


Your next point: lower level weapons in this version are vastly more efficient than higher level weapons, just like you suggest. You're absolutely right, and that's been in the game for years.


Your points about tradeoffs are well taken, but I think you'll find that our Dota 2 version follows this principle, in spirit if not in letter.






Last edited by Frood; Jan 19, 2018 @ 6:17am
Ciel.R Feb 15, 2018 @ 7:29am 
Crossfire is the horrible version where everyone had the exact same play style due to the item imbalancing.

Sked > Supressor > Crossfire > Some other one i cant rmb > EdgeCrusher

Sked left the item choice rather limited, having about 3 shops of weapon. Since all of them were balanced, and the gold were distributed, there is always a chance for comeback. It is also important to note that he kept kill gold low, and respawn time moderate to prevent discontinuity.

Without certain complexity in game, it is very hard for a game to become popular. I would say that if older players dont have an advantage over the game, then they tend not to play it at all, and without a strong support base the game will no longer be relevent.

As much as I can list why it was a good or a bad idea, ultimately, you're the developer, and it is your game. Whether or not it will be adopted depends on the mechanism of the game.
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