What's the breakdown on the "likelihood" of certain colors?

Dwarves, humans and elves can have one of four skin tones applied on their texture. As part of this mod, I decided to add a fifth "mid"-tone to the mix, to allow for a wider range of skin tones. When I had to assign which skin tones would map to which textures, I decided to redo the whole mapping of skin tones. Basically, vanilla looks like this:

Dark skin [2 tones]
Mid-dark skin [7 tones]
Mid-light skin [6 tones]
Light skin [3 tones]

which I turned into:

Dark skin [4 tones]
Mid-dark skin [4 tones]
Medium skin [3 tones]
Mid-light skin [3 tones]
Light skin [4 tones]

This should allow for a more even distribution of skin tones. Perhaps it wasn't clearly communicated.

Gender isn't dimorphic, and in reality it's not easily communicated. Since you're remixing all the facial expressions, why not do that with gender expressions?

I think there may have been a miscommunication. I'm not saying gender is dimorphic, as it is merely a social construct. But humans do have some dimorphism between sexes. Sex in Dwarf Fortress (or "castes" as they are called by the game) is strictly male or female, at least for a majority of creatures, including humans, elves and dwarves. I'm not saying I'm completely happy with leaving it at that, but there isn't much wiggle room for me here. If you could clarify further what you define as "gender expressions" in the context of the game I'd be willing to consider it.

I've rephrased the description to hopefully be clearer on the changes made.

Thanks for the clarification. I haven't looked into the default config for the game in a while. Statistically white is a less frequent skin color in the real world. Perhaps that's why the have that like that.

You can look up what gender expression means and how your plans to emphasize masculine and feminine traits would work in a way that encompasses that. It doesn't belong in quotes. If you're going to tackle gender expression in a mod I recommend you do. You have an opportunity here to make your mod inclusive, please do so.

It's difficult to tell how the world of Dwarf Fortress mirrors the real world. What seems to be the case in game is that darker colors of skin appear in warmer climates and vice versa. The distribution of climates is completely different in every world, though, so frequency of skin colors can vary drastically. I went with the safe route of even baseline distribution, and the world gen gets to decide the rest.

My apologies if the use of gender expression in quotes came off the wrong way. It is an important topic, I agree, and any way for the inhabitants of the DF world to express themselves is a positive in my book. I cannot promise it will be implemented in the short term, though, as many core features are still missing, and I need to make plans for how to represent it through the fairly vague way DF handles personalities. It would be much easier once the actual concept of gender becomes a mechanic in the game, like with the addition of transgender people. Still, I will keep your comments in mind going forward.

We should be laughing now. this is comedy material. a game about dwarves, in a tolkien subsetting (and yes its relevant since not a single sexual aspect of the lives of dwarves that literally got spawned from rock in the silmarilion was written in the few books i read from him) becomes target of this foul ideological ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. hey modder, just ignore those ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, good job by the way.

Gender isn't dimorphic, and in reality it's not easily communicated.

If gender is not dimorphic, wouldn't that mean there are no differences between the genders?

Originally posted by 76561198054979794:

It would be much easier once the actual concept of gender becomes a mechanic in the game, like with the addition of transgender people.

I think Tarn Adams said that he's never going to introduce genitalia or other private parts into the game, along with bodily functions such as defecation and urination, or other sex-specific functions. Even sex is made only abstract, with a chance for a dwarf woman to become pregnant every time she is spending time with her husband.

Anyways, transgender dwarves would then be impossible, since there are no genitals to replace. That's assuming they introduced such high-tech and complex surgery as what would be required for such a transition. Though, I suppose magic could be used to fill that place.

So, such a mechanic would require modding. I think it may be possible, given the degree of control we have over creature features, but I am not sure. It would be a large project, that's for sure. It would require that the social aspects for transgender identity are placed in the game somehow. As otherwise, the only way transgender dwarves would have any impact on gameplay at all is that some of your dwarves would sometimes change their gender, and as a result become infertile.

I wonder if we go that far if we should implement transphobic dwarves who won't marry the transgender ones, lol. Or if those dwarves who "dream of having a family" would then not marry transgender dwarves, so that they can marry someone they can have children with.

Anywho, all a very complex process. And it would all have to be done by modders, since Tarn isn't going to implement genitalia.

Though, I wonder if he would implement it abstractly... it's possible, but it would likely be very far down the line as far as priorities go. In fact, did he say something about such an abstract implementation? I do not recall. I only know that sexuality has been implemented.

Originally posted by Digganob:

I think Tarn Adams said that he's never going to introduce genitalia or other private parts into the game...

I believe he's gone on record to say that transgender and intersex dwarves will become a game feature once he's figured out how to best implement it. This is just one example but you could find more if you searched for it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/df5u44/probably_already_been_posted_but_bay_12_said/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Whether this is still on the cards or at least whether this is going to happen within the next few years is unclear. Ultimately, whichever way it gets implemented, I'll be sure to represent it where possible.

Hm! Interesting. I suppose it may indeed be introduced in some abstract manner. Must be a lot of work for him. I hope he finishes adventure mode before he gets to that sort of thing, though! There is much to be done.

Anyways, transgender dwarves would then be impossible, since there are no genitals to replace. That's assuming they introduced such high-tech and complex surgery as what would be required for such a transition. Though, I suppose magic could be used to fill that place.

I wonder if we go that far if we should implement transphobic dwarves who won't marry the transgender ones, lol. Or if those dwarves who "dream of having a family" would then not marry transgender dwarves, so that they can marry someone they can have children with.

This might shock you, but you know absolutely nothing about transgender people. I don't need to own you because you did it all on your own.

Originally posted by Jacko:

It's difficult to tell how the world of Dwarf Fortress mirrors the real world. What seems to be the case in game is that darker colors of skin appear in warmer climates and vice versa. The distribution of climates is completely different in every world, though, so frequency of skin colors can vary drastically. I went with the safe route of even baseline distribution, and the world gen gets to decide the rest.

My apologies if the use of gender expression in quotes came off the wrong way. It is an important topic, I agree, and any way for the inhabitants of the DF world to express themselves is a positive in my book. I cannot promise it will be implemented in the short term, though, as many core features are still missing, and I need to make plans for how to represent it through the fairly vague way DF handles personalities. It would be much easier once the actual concept of gender becomes a mechanic in the game, like with the addition of transgender people. Still, I will keep your comments in mind going forward.

In terms of how cisgender and trans people express themselves, there's not much difference and they go across an entire spectrum. If you just shuffled it you'd be closer to correct than if you decided to make distinctions.

If you wanted to know why I asked you to approach this with caution, you now have two ignorant fashy replies and some cool tags added to harass me as a reason why.

Originally posted by SlimePsychic:

In terms of how cisgender and trans people express themselves, there's not much difference and they go across an entire spectrum. If you just shuffled it you'd be closer to correct than if you decided to make distinctions.

If you wanted to know why I asked you to approach this with caution, you now have two ignorant fashy replies and some cool tags added to harass me as a reason why.

That's fair. I don't have any plans to "lock" anything behind a gender or sex. For example, if you edited the game files to give female dwarves beards then they would be visible. I unlocked the restriction for faces, so any face combination can be generated on any character. The only difference right now is the slightly different body forms between male and female. If I find a smart way to lighten that restriction or to provide a unisex alternative, I'll let you know.

Now a message to anyone reading this discussion and feeling very emotionally loaded about it: Whether you are in strong agreement or strong disagreement with any viewpoints expressed here, please, be kind and show basic respect towards your fellow human being. Harassment and vulgarity does not make for productive conversation, nor does it give credibility to your argument. And any form of hate speech will of course not be tolerated, it will be removed.

If anybody has thoughts they would like to share, whether in agreement or not, I am open-minded to discuss it as long as you keep the above in mind.

Originally posted by SlimePsychic:

This might shock you, but you know absolutely nothing about transgender people. I don't need to own you because you did it all on your own.

Indeed I am surprised. I had thought that transgender people, in the process of transitioning, fabricated facsimiles of the desired genitalia utilizing skin/organ grafts from their existing genitalia, which closely imitated at least the sexual functions of those desired genitalia. This of course results in infertility, as the removal of testicles makes the production of sperm impossible, and likewise the removal of a womb makes pregnancy impossible.

Though, I suppose you could keep those bare minimum reproductive parts. I'm not sure why you would want to do that, though. If I wanted to be a man, the last thing I would want to do is get pregnant. That would make me very uncomfortable with my body. At least, I would think so. I have seen cases where that has occurred, though I have little idea why. I suppose some people maybe want the best of both worlds. Beats me.

If you wanted to know why I asked you to approach this with caution, you now have two ignorant fashy replies and some cool tags added to harass me as a reason why.

Ignorant I am, but fascistic not only I am not, but I also have not exhibited. What strikes you as fascistic in my admittedly ignorant foray into the hypothetical implementation of transgender inclusion in Dwarf Fortress?

I consider myself fairly politically aware, yet I do not see where I might have indicated I was of an authoritarian disposition.

Then again, I have much trouble with social ques. Perhaps I have committed a faux pas of sorts. Have I offended some sensibility of yours by one of my propositions, thus tripping some trap of acceptable conduct, which would otherwise be a deliberate attack on the institutions of the Sexual Revolution and of the LGBTQ+ alliance?

I admit my speech is eloquent to the garrulous degree. That is how I like it to be. But my questions are genuine, and my intent guilt-free. And, of course, my prose is quite rhymey.

That last paragraph was a bit silly in presentation, but the content of it was serious. I intend to have an honest, clear discussion, on the eligibility of implementing trans dwarves, through various methods. Hence why I had maintained a strict adherence to that subject before this comment. (Edit: Except perhaps for my comment on gender dimorphism and its supposed inexistence. I would still like an answer on that, because the idea intrigues me. How can a group of different things not be dimorphic?) Hence, again, my confusion as to your offence.

Lets assume those defeding sex isnt binary are right. and lets assume they are transgender or f(gender)=x+1 with x tending to infinity. my point here is relevance : "Statistics on the number of transgender people vary widely, in part due to differing definitions of transgender.Some countries, such as Canada, collect census data on transgender people.Transgender identity is generally found in less than 1% of the worldwide population, with figures ranging from <0.1% to 0.6%." even tho they can be correct in their assertion, they are less than 1%. should we care? Also their discourse does not work favorably to the majority binary people. we are fine with your existance. just piss off when we are creating content using our own lenses. go and make your own mod, and be happy.

Given the overall design of Dwarf Fortress, the possible scale that can be achieved, and the fact that the visuals exist for the player to personally use as opposed to any ingame characters, it's rather silly to be concerned about gender expression and trans stuff when the whole point of this mod is to add visual variety and clarity and make individuals more immediately recognizable for pure gameplay purposes.

In all honesty it's rather difficult to take someone seriously when their personality appears to begin and end at nothing more than the fact of their being a member of a specific demographic, especially when they're accusing people of being Fascists just out of difference of opinion.