The worst part of this whole deal is that I lost a save that I had tons of hours in because the character had the "Bloodgorged" trait. I was playing just fine last night but when I booted up the game today and tried to load the save it kept crashing to desktop. I only realized later that it was because the PoD mod had updated and completely removed all references to Bloodgorged from the code.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here with how frustrated I am but dang that save was huge guys. I was trying to conquer all of Africa but now all my progress is wiped.

It's a new DLC from Paradox, your save would have been toast whatever you were playing.

"Why wasn't it in the changelog?" This change was done by Chilemiao, our Chinese dev that doesn't really speak English and thus, doesn't write his changes in the changelog. Sparc tries to understand what he is doing and cover for him but things slip through from time to time.

"Why was it removed?" Bloodgorged was done a long time ago by a dev that didn't knew or care about the lore of the world. It, frankly, doesn't make any sense in the WoD. It would be like having a redemption quest for the Orcs in Lords of the Rings or something.

It also was very messy script wise, since it acted as a demi faction/splat of sorts with tons of exceptions everywhere. The dev that did them has been gone for years now, leavihg us with the task to maintain his work that we never liked. The decision to get rid of it was accepted a long time ago, but I wanted something to replace it (the current objective ties to the Tremere/Nagaraja lore) so as not to remove stuff from players without a replacement. Chilemiao did it for the last patch.

And so here we are. Sorry is you liked it but bloodgorged won't be coming back.

While I can appreciate the team's dedication to the lore and the world setting this is literally just a mod for a video game. You literally have patreon created characters added into the mod, some of them with included backstories. Its not very lore accurate if I make one character who manages to slaughter every single landed setite in the game world but I'm able to do it anyways. Its not like this is official white wolf content that's getting adapted into a book or something, this is just a bunch of people who enjoy the VTM world setting playing a modded game.

Thanks for replacing it with something instead of just leaving us high and dry wondering but I hope that we can get a better option sometime in the future. I really enjoyed the unique playstyle of revenants and thought that their ultimate objective was really cool. I'd love to see something similar return to them in the future if possible.

I understand we won't be getting bloodgorged but maybe at least adapt the caitiff objective of founding your own clan into the revenant "steal the power" decision? Just my two cents.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and for all the hard work the team puts into this mod. I love it and I've spent hundreds of hours enjoying the content that you've all created.

Revenants (and ghouls for that matter) aren't considered finished, that's why they don't have a bookmark dedicated to them. So them getting more stuff at some point is a given, but they are not worked on right now.

About the first part of your answer, if you ever hanged out with people passionate about an universe, you might have noticed that they are likely even more passionate than the people making it. Every fandom will have countless lore debates or wild speculations that the authors or the business behind the source material wouldn't even consider.

And for a mod, it might be even worse, since those fans are crazy enough to dedicate their free time and a lot (and I mean a lot) of hours just because they like their universe and want to share it with other people/work on it.

With that in mind, I think you can understand why we are very dedicated to keeping the mod's cohesion with the source material. We are just crazy fans.

Oh and about the patrons characters, they don't break anything really. We have strict guidelines so they can't be something silly or non existing in the lore and they basically replace randomly generated characters needed by CK3 to function (CK3 needs a ton of courtiers, barons etc to work and those are generated by the engine and thus not canon, although they follow canon "rules" in a way).

Originally posted by Karde:

Revenants (and ghouls for that matter) aren't considered finished, that's why they don't have a bookmark dedicated to them. So them getting more stuff at some point is a given, but they are not worked on right now.

About the first part of your answer, if you ever hanged out with people passionate about an universe, you might have noticed that they are likely even more passionate than the people making it. Every fandom will have countless lore debates or wild speculations that the authors or the business behind the source material wouldn't even consider.

And for a mod, it might be even worse, since those fans are crazy enough to dedicate their free time and a lot (and I mean a lot) of hours just because they like their universe and want to share it with other people/work on it.

With that in mind, I think you can understand why we are very dedicated to keeping the mod's cohesion with the source material. We are just crazy fans.

Oh and about the patrons characters, they don't break anything really. We have strict guidelines so they can't be something silly or non existing in the lore and they basically replace randomly generated characters needed by CK3 to function (CK3 needs a ton of courtiers, barons etc to work and those are generated by the engine and thus not canon, although they follow canon "rules" in a way).

It's fine to be patient about a series or universe. It's annoying when developers decide how the players play the game or remove features based on lore.
For example no reason existed to remove the discern the aura discipline. It wasn't game breaking let the players decide if they want to use it or not. Instead you completely removed it from the game.
Some more examples are tournaments and feasts. While it's not lore accurate for vanilla tournaments to exist in the mod it'd definetely be fun. But it's limited based on a developers strigent views on how the mod should work. At least make it optional.

I mean, you can have this argument for everything.

CK3 removed their "supernatural flavor" (demonic cults, mystical societies, weird events) from CK2. This is a choice they made, it's arguable but they seem to stand by it to offer a more coherent medieval experience and less pop culture heavy. This could be argued to be anti fun.

The warcraft mod blocks you from having a kid between your human character and a centaur. Why? this could be fun in that line of thinking.

The lord of the rings mod doesn't allow orcs to be friendly and seduce humans. Why? this could also be fun in thsi line of thinking.

There are no limits except the one you set for yourself. Some people would like us to be even more restrictive. Some people would like to be a little less so. Some would like us to be way less so (why no pregancy for vampires? Educations for kids is fun!).
We make a choice on where to put the limit, like any mod (or base game really) do. For those who disagree with this limit, submods are a thing that can easily be done for some small scale stuff (like reactiviating tournaments for everyone is literally one line of script).

Originally posted by Karde:

I mean, you can have this argument for everything.

CK3 removed their "supernatural flavor" (demonic cults, mystical societies, weird events) from CK2. This is a choice they made, it's arguable but they seem to stand by it to offer a more coherent medieval experience and less pop culture heavy. This could be argued to be anti fun.

The warcraft mod blocks you from having a kid between your human character and a centaur. Why? this could be fun in that line of thinking.

The lord of the rings mod doesn't allow orcs to be friendly and seduce humans. Why? this could also be fun in thsi line of thinking.

There are no limits except the one you set for yourself. Some people would like us to be even more restrictive. Some people would like to be a little less so. Some would like us to be way less so (why no pregancy for vampires? Educations for kids is fun!).
We make a choice on where to put the limit, like any mod (or base game really) do. For those who disagree with this limit, submods are a thing that can easily be done for some small scale stuff (like reactiviating tournaments for everyone is literally one line of script).

First of all that's not true.Ck3 removed this mechanics because they didn't have time to put them in not because it was a conscious decision to do so. It's very different from disabling an already existing feature.Your examples make sense, however they are radically different from removing a specific power. You removed an entirely optional feature because of a simple developer preference not because it was gamebreaking or lorebreaking.

Originally posted by Karde:

I mean, you can have this argument for everything.

CK3 removed their "supernatural flavor" (demonic cults, mystical societies, weird events) from CK2. This is a choice they made, it's arguable but they seem to stand by it to offer a more coherent medieval experience and less pop culture heavy. This could be argued to be anti fun.

The warcraft mod blocks you from having a kid between your human character and a centaur. Why? this could be fun in that line of thinking.

The lord of the rings mod doesn't allow orcs to be friendly and seduce humans. Why? this could also be fun in thsi line of thinking.

There are no limits except the one you set for yourself. Some people would like us to be even more restrictive. Some people would like to be a little less so. Some would like us to be way less so (why no pregancy for vampires? Educations for kids is fun!).
We make a choice on where to put the limit, like any mod (or base game really) do. For those who disagree with this limit, submods are a thing that can easily be done for some small scale stuff (like reactiviating tournaments for everyone is literally one line of script).

Also it's not one simple line of script to reactivate discern the aura. It's entirely bottched now and would have to be rewritten in it's entirety.

It's been years since CK3 released now and there hasn't been something even remotely close to glitterhoof/demon cult content/secret bear in any of the multiple DLCs. I think it's pretty clear at this point that CK3 just won't go this way.

I'm not even sure what discern the aura changed honestly so I won't comment on that. Might be due to the hunt being completely changed by another dev.

"Tournaments not lorebreaking". I would argue they are even more lorebreaking then an orc making friends with an human in LOTR which I could see happen. Tournaments, in CK3, are sunny activities with drinking, eating and poking each other with a large stick in broad daylight.
Vampires can't eat, can't drink and just instantly die in the sun, period.

If someone was to work on these vanilla tournaments events and interfaces to make them happen at night, like a midnight tournament? I would integrate them in the mod in an heartbeat. But that's not the case right now.

Originally posted by Karde:

It's been years since CK3 released now and there hasn't been something even remotely close to glitterhoof/demon cult content/secret bear in any of the multiple DLCs. I think it's pretty clear at this point that CK3 just won't go this way.

I'm not even sure what discern the aura changed honestly so I won't comment on that. Might be due to the hunt being completely changed by another dev.

"Tournaments not lorebreaking". I would argue they are even more lorebreaking then an orc making friends with an human in LOTR which I could see happen. Tournaments, in CK3, are sunny activities with drinking, eating and poking each other with a large stick in broad daylight.
Vampires can't eat, can't drink and just instantly die in the sun, period.

If someone was to work on these vanilla tournaments events and interfaces to make them happen at night, like a midnight tournament? I would integrate them in the mod in an heartbeat. But that's not the case right now.

I'm not talking about tournaments being lorebreaking I'm talking about removing discern the aura.

You keep demanding an explanation from the devs, when the onus is on you to provide an explanation for your extraordinary claims.

I'll bite anyway.

"Discern the Aura was removed"

It wasn't. It still exists in the Steam version in the same form it always existed in the Steam version.
What I assume you're referring to is its initial implementation from the dev build, which allowed you to summon a mortal with every single trait in the game.

"It wasn't lorebreaking"

This is the actual text of the ability from the tabletop RPG:

"Discern the Aura: Scan a group of people with one particular trait in their aura"

You need to explain how you can go from the above to "Summon a previously nonexistant Beautiful Herculean Genius Blademaster Varangian Adventurer Mystic Lament Psychic Sorcerer".

"It wasn't gamebreaking"

You need to explain how an ability that lets you summon a hyper-competent character with a perfectly loyal personality doesn't break pacing, tension, resource management, decision making, or roleplaying.
So far the only argument you made was "It's fun", which is (conveniently) completely unfalsifiable.

"You removed an entirely optional feature because of simple developer preference"

This is the one that really irks me.
Most of the people with access to the dev build are active on the Discord, so that's where most of the balance discussion happens.
When Discern the Aura was released in its initial form, it was immediately seen as ridiculous. Community members were sharing screenshots of the overpowered characters they created with this ability, and laughing at them. Its removal was completely uncontroversial, both among the dev team and the playerbase.
I assume this is why you took this discussion to the Steam forums, to make the subject seem more controversial than it really was.

I'm always ready to engage in dialogue with the players. So far, this hasn't been a dialogue. You have ignored every argument leveled your way, you have misrepresented the situation to make the devs look like petty tyrants, and you have straight up lied in places ("removing supernatural content from ck3 wasn't a conscious decision by paradox" - yes it was). Karde has been trying to turn this into a productive discussion, and you have blocked every attempt with dismissive one-liners. The correct course of action would be to lock this thread. Please prove me wrong.

Originally posted by fluffy heretic:

You keep demanding an explanation from the devs, when the onus is on you to provide an explanation for your extraordinary claims.

I'll bite anyway.

"Discern the Aura was removed"

It wasn't. It still exists in the Steam version in the same form it always existed in the Steam version.
What I assume you're referring to is its initial implementation from the dev build, which allowed you to summon a mortal with every single trait in the game.

"It wasn't lorebreaking"

This is the actual text of the ability from the tabletop RPG:

"Discern the Aura: Scan a group of people with one particular trait in their aura"

You need to explain how you can go from the above to "Summon a previously nonexistant Beautiful Herculean Genius Blademaster Varangian Adventurer Mystic Lament Psychic Sorcerer".

"It wasn't gamebreaking"

You need to explain how an ability that lets you summon a hyper-competent character with a perfectly loyal personality doesn't break pacing, tension, resource management, decision making, or roleplaying.
So far the only argument you made was "It's fun", which is (conveniently) completely unfalsifiable.

"You removed an entirely optional feature because of simple developer preference"

This is the one that really irks me.
Most of the people with access to the dev build are active on the Discord, so that's where most of the balance discussion happens.
When Discern the Aura was released in its initial form, it was immediately seen as ridiculous. Community members were sharing screenshots of the overpowered characters they created with this ability, and laughing at them. Its removal was completely uncontroversial, both among the dev team and the playerbase.
I assume this is why you took this discussion to the Steam forums, to make the subject seem more controversial than it really was.

I'm always ready to engage in dialogue with the players. So far, this hasn't been a dialogue. You have ignored every argument leveled your way, you have misrepresented the situation to make the devs look like petty tyrants, and you have straight up lied in places ("removing supernatural content from ck3 wasn't a conscious decision by paradox" - yes it was). Karde has been trying to turn this into a productive discussion, and you have blocked every attempt with dismissive one-liners. The correct course of action would be to lock this thread. Please prove me wrong.

Your arguments are nice but they don't justify removing a perfectly optional ability from the game. It doesn't matter if you think players shouldn't use it or it doesn't match the exact lore description. It's an entirely optional feature many players might find enjoyable thus keep it and let players decide. The feature might annoy you as a developer, but you never want to restrict the player and remove playstyles arbitrarily based on the way you like to play the game. Especially for a single player game.

I love your analogy about CK3 removing the more eccentric and out of the world events. I want to give you my own analogy.
People have constantly claimed that CK3 is a much easier and simpler game than CK2 was. They say it's so much easier to get claim's and that specifically meritocracy is OP. The other new half of the playerbase says these mechanics increase the gameplay intricacy and fun of the game.

Is paradox going to remove meritocracy because they think you shouldn't play that way? No they aren't. They give you a wide array of tools to choose to use abuse or not use at all. The don't tack things off.

I'm sorry if I came out accusatory. Players won't always be swayed or change their mind once you give them a counter argument. I've never personally attacked any developer or been passive aggressive. However I have been very adamant in my argument and have given some criticism. Just because you can't handle that doesn't mean you lock down threads. Look what happened to CA they are now in a crisis because they couldn't handle disagreemennt.

Originally posted by fluffy heretic:

You keep demanding an explanation from the devs, when the onus is on you to provide an explanation for your extraordinary claims.

I'll bite anyway.

"Discern the Aura was removed"

It wasn't. It still exists in the Steam version in the same form it always existed in the Steam version.
What I assume you're referring to is its initial implementation from the dev build, which allowed you to summon a mortal with every single trait in the game.

"It wasn't lorebreaking"

This is the actual text of the ability from the tabletop RPG:

"Discern the Aura: Scan a group of people with one particular trait in their aura"

You need to explain how you can go from the above to "Summon a previously nonexistant Beautiful Herculean Genius Blademaster Varangian Adventurer Mystic Lament Psychic Sorcerer".

"It wasn't gamebreaking"

You need to explain how an ability that lets you summon a hyper-competent character with a perfectly loyal personality doesn't break pacing, tension, resource management, decision making, or roleplaying.
So far the only argument you made was "It's fun", which is (conveniently) completely unfalsifiable.

"You removed an entirely optional feature because of simple developer preference"

This is the one that really irks me.
Most of the people with access to the dev build are active on the Discord, so that's where most of the balance discussion happens.
When Discern the Aura was released in its initial form, it was immediately seen as ridiculous. Community members were sharing screenshots of the overpowered characters they created with this ability, and laughing at them. Its removal was completely uncontroversial, both among the dev team and the playerbase.
I assume this is why you took this discussion to the Steam forums, to make the subject seem more controversial than it really was.

I'm always ready to engage in dialogue with the players. So far, this hasn't been a dialogue. You have ignored every argument leveled your way, you have misrepresented the situation to make the devs look like petty tyrants, and you have straight up lied in places ("removing supernatural content from ck3 wasn't a conscious decision by paradox" - yes it was). Karde has been trying to turn this into a productive discussion, and you have blocked every attempt with dismissive one-liners. The correct course of action would be to lock this thread. Please prove me wrong.

"
I assume this is why you took this discussion to the Steam forums, to make the subject seem more controversial than it really was."
I'm not in any of the POD discords. I had no intentions of "plotting to make this topic controversial" but to discuss why discern the aura was removed and my grievances with this choice. I can assure you most of the casual POD playerbase is located right here in the mod page. I understand sometimes having your main form of communication and balance discussion left to patrons in your discord server can create a type of yesmen system. Where players are afraid to disagree or challenge developers in any way or aspect, this often leads to a bubble. A bubble where developers are not used to crticization or disagreement. Now I'm sure this hasn't happened to anyone in POD but to prevent this from happening you should probably be more receptive to discussion outside of the discord server.

Originally posted by fluffy heretic:

You keep demanding an explanation from the devs, when the onus is on you to provide an explanation for your extraordinary claims.

I'll bite anyway.

"Discern the Aura was removed"

It wasn't. It still exists in the Steam version in the same form it always existed in the Steam version.
What I assume you're referring to is its initial implementation from the dev build, which allowed you to summon a mortal with every single trait in the game.

"It wasn't lorebreaking"

This is the actual text of the ability from the tabletop RPG:

"Discern the Aura: Scan a group of people with one particular trait in their aura"

You need to explain how you can go from the above to "Summon a previously nonexistant Beautiful Herculean Genius Blademaster Varangian Adventurer Mystic Lament Psychic Sorcerer".

"It wasn't gamebreaking"

You need to explain how an ability that lets you summon a hyper-competent character with a perfectly loyal personality doesn't break pacing, tension, resource management, decision making, or roleplaying.
So far the only argument you made was "It's fun", which is (conveniently) completely unfalsifiable.

"You removed an entirely optional feature because of simple developer preference"

This is the one that really irks me.
Most of the people with access to the dev build are active on the Discord, so that's where most of the balance discussion happens.
When Discern the Aura was released in its initial form, it was immediately seen as ridiculous. Community members were sharing screenshots of the overpowered characters they created with this ability, and laughing at them. Its removal was completely uncontroversial, both among the dev team and the playerbase.
I assume this is why you took this discussion to the Steam forums, to make the subject seem more controversial than it really was.

I'm always ready to engage in dialogue with the players. So far, this hasn't been a dialogue. You have ignored every argument leveled your way, you have misrepresented the situation to make the devs look like petty tyrants, and you have straight up lied in places ("removing supernatural content from ck3 wasn't a conscious decision by paradox" - yes it was). Karde has been trying to turn this into a productive discussion, and you have blocked every attempt with dismissive one-liners. The correct course of action would be to lock this thread. Please prove me wrong.

Personally I was satisfied with the answers karde gave to me and I was done with the argument. I responded only to kindly tell him that I meant discern the aura and not tournaments. A day later you charged in seemingly angry and ready to revive an already resolved issue.

The Developers are the key drive to a mod, not the players - their desires are higher in the hierarchy of "What will happen" than any single player.
Their vision for what the mod should be is the single most important aspect, if they do not like the impact an ability has they can remove it.
Your point about Meritocracy works against you - that is a player complaint, not a developer distaste.

The discord is not a centre of Yesmen, instead it's merely a place in which development and comments on said development are easier to drive as a conversation as opposed to this back and forth of a forum.

Last Wordism isn't a "Kindly telling", and will always drive a developer to respond because that is exactly what they are supposed to do in this case. If you feel a conversation over, desist posting, do not seek a last word because it is likely that a developer will continue because they - rightly by all social norms, because they are the ones in a position of authority over the mod.
You are not talking as peer to peer, you are talking player to mod developer.