Throwaway flavour text lines aren't valued over other given stats, specific use in combat, or common sense. They don't come anywhere near that kind of throwaway "beats all the things" performance whenever they show up, and the stats we've given them ingame are actually superior to the stats that the same sourcebooks you're referencing give them. Same way we don't make the Mon Remonda and other MC80Bs stand up against SSDs on their own just based on throwaway fluff.

If we gave them more defensive stats it would be an effective nerf for what their role is in a fleet because it would increase their pop cap and cost proportionally. If you're sending them in to brawl, you're using them wrong. They outrange ISds and most other units outside of the Empire of the Hand by a significant margin. If you drop them behind something tankier, like an MC90, you can turn on power to weapons and watch them kill things with little to no response. Increasing the defensive stats may make them stronger on the frontlines, but it'd make them less cost effective to deploy for their damage.

Yes I can see that Nebula is meant to be used like that, but I still think that a hull of 4194 compared to RSD's 5600 is little weird. Yes it costs less but I am not saying to make it MC90 kind tank. In the Starship of the galaxy Nebula is given same amount of hp as ISD II which I think is broken, it should be balanced but at least in my opinion Nebula (now 5900 RSD 6000) should be made more expenisive like 6500 - 6800 becouse ship was (in lore) very advanced and give it a little buff to hull to fo example to Endurence carrier hull points which is 4774 or slightly weeker or stronger for like I don't know 100 point up or down from Endurence, to make it killable but not a push over. It allso stands out to me that Nebula is one of thoes ships that apperied later in time line and for sake of balance and becouse the New class program started by that time you can make it in Era 3 but their reall combat experience began after Dalla if I'm not wrong. While MC90 should be the sip that tanks damage Nebula could be one to take some more.
And It was just weird for me to see lore wise great ship to ship combat vassel was so weak.

Originally posted by Corey Loses:

Throwaway flavour text lines aren't valued over other given stats, specific use in combat, or common sense. They don't come anywhere near that kind of throwaway "beats all the things" performance whenever they show up, and the stats we've given them ingame are actually superior to the stats that the same sourcebooks you're referencing give them. Same way we don't make the Mon Remonda and other MC80Bs stand up against SSDs on their own just based on throwaway fluff.

Excuse me for jumping into this, but I've been shown the source material you're basing the Nebula-class stats on, and as far as I can tell the Nebula should be about on par with the ISD2, not slightly weaker than the ISD1. Or am I missing something?

Originally posted by Timels:

As I have been playing I noticed that Nebula star destroyer is like made of glass I mean Endurence has better hull than it! and a past tier Republic Star destroyer also. Nebula's hull is below 5k what?? Ok I can understand that hull can be low but this is The New ship Class most powerfull shields and thick hull new technologies and so on, they are meant to be improvments on the past desings, balance is important, yes but Nebula isn't a glass canon, this ship was republic answer to ISD it can shoud be able to kick ISD's to submission. Republic Star destroyer is more durable, yes it doesn't give so much firepower but they can last longer so they can be active longer on the battlefield wich means. And the speed Nebula is ( I might be wrong ) 2.5 and Repblic SD is 2 (maybe), yes it is very manoeuvrable and that is important to take a note. But the price I mean cheaper than a MC90 or Republic SD, Nebulas were few in number ( yes there was a 5th fleet with only New class ships) it would be nice to make them feel like it more expensive so they can't be so easliy spamed and makes them worth the price so that they can take a hit and deliver one. Also both essencial guide to warfare and Starships of the Galaxy state that Nebula was meant to be a backbone of the New Republic navy, Starships of the galaxy states that it can take anything short of SSD.

The Nebula is supposed to be strong, but saying it isn't in this mod is jumping to conclusions. The ship is really good if you don't send it up against an entire fleet and think it will win. Like all Star Destroyer's, it needs support. And the Team is trying to make this mod balanced, not put in a Flying space tank that can kill anything short of an SSD. What I'm saying is that if you actually use it in fleets, it is amazing. If you want a lore accurate Nebula that is really OP, I think there's a working submod on the workshop, so I'd use that.

If you use the flat stats given for the Nebula in SotG as the be-all-end-all of stats, then you need to look at the stats given for every other ship as well, which gives you some other *really* wonky power interactions from different ships. For example, the Battle Dragon would end up being just as tanky as the ISD and Nebula, if not moreso, IIRC. Pointing to the Nebula being on par with the ISDII's defense there, which is done for the "good guys" in a tabletop RPG situation, then you're just cherrypicking. When you say "lore accurate", you have to say lore accurate according to *what*. The fact that one statement or one set of stats gets picked up by fans and completely ignores the rest of what that implies in the same books comes down more to fanboys liking that ship than any reasonable or consistent attempt to suss out what a consistent system would look like.

When you take into account the size of the ship, the lack of significant actual tech improvements in that time in-universe (it's only about a decade), the amount of actual weapons stated, etc, you don't get any reaosnable way for that to happen. when you go with an interpretation of removing extra supplies from the ship so it's a short-range ship (in the logistical sense) you can pack more power into it, and it IS incredibly good for it's size.

If you look at its actual in-universe engagements, it doesn't just roflstomp those ships (in fact, we see it losing more often than not). We try to take into account stats from RPG sources, flavour text, examples in universe, intent of the ship design, and sensible roles for the game we're making here. Not just single cherry-picked statements or stats with entirely different intent which, if we applied universally, would buff the Nebula *along with a ton of other ships* and create nonsensical interactions between a *ton* of ships.

Fractalsponge did a good write-up on this before (silly meaningless space numbers aside), which lines up pretty well with our decision making with the Nebula in the mod:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/362363369958670338/828989707869225001/Nebula.png

Basically, anyone who thinks the Nebula is "bad" in the mod just doesn't understand how powerful range can be as a stat, because again, any buff to health with approriate cost and pop cap increases, pushes them out of their role more than it helps them, even if it gives people some better feeling of being able to 1v1 specific ships, which isn't especially meaningful in a fleet combat game (and ignores the fact that the New Class ships were meant to do just that- work in concert with each other).

Originally posted by Corey Loses:

If you use the flat stats given for the Nebula as the be-all-end-all of stats, then you need to look at the stats given for every other ship as well, which gives you some other *really* stupid power interactions. Pointing to the Nebula being on par with the ISDII's defense there, which is done for the "good guys" in a tabletop RPG situation, then you're just cherrypicking there.

When you take into account the size of the ship, the lack of significant actual tech improvements in that time in-univer (it's only about a decade), the amount of actual weapons stated, etc, you don't get any reaosnable way for that to happen. when you go with an interpretation of removing extra supplies from the ship so it's a short-range ship (in the logistical sense) you can pack more power into it, and it IS incredibly good for it's size.

If you look at its actual in-universe engagements, it doesn't just roflstomp those ships (in fact, we see it losing more often than not). We try to take into account stats from RPG sources, flavour text, examples in universe, intent of the ship design, and sensible roles for the game we're making here. Not just single cherry-picked statements or stats with entirely different intent which, if we applied universally, would buff the Nebula *along with a ton of other ships* and create nonsensical interations between a *ton* of ships.

Ok so on par with ISD II not happening I got that (never wanted that), but you Corey bring up size so Endurance is the same size as Nebula at least in lenght, so why is that not a factor in Endurance case I mean not to cheery-pick but a carrier of that size should be less of a hull base right, at least, it has to store more starfighter and supplies for them but it could have a better hull structure or something I don't know, or the fact that Endurenc has weaker shields for me it just looks weird, battelships or in this case Star Destroyers are meant to hold the line a bit. Yes making Nebula OP IS BAD I know that it might not have seen like that but my main issue is with the hull disproporsion stats on some NR ships.


And to digress I mean no disrespect for the work you and the team do on the mod I love the mod, the setting and hardships you guys do to make it better than an already great game.

Cracken's Threat Dossier brings up RSD as a ship larger kinda like MC line but some of that SD is there. MC line is hard to beat it is tanky but isn't that advanced as well. Bringing up time period is a little weird becouse we had galaxy guns and what not but yeah that is cheery-picking so lets leave it, but we also got MC90 that has the best Mon cala shields so there was some advancment in the feild.

To talk flat stats is bad overall I can see that, but In my defence let's talk about them for a bit ISD 2 about 8k hull 8k sheild meant for head to head combat ok. Endurence 4774 hull 5k shields meant as a carrier and little support fire great. Nebula 4194 hull 6k shields meant for long range combat ok.

Stat wise should be ok right, but it keeps buging me why does in RPG and texts and other materials that this ship should be weakr than it carrier twin. And still the comparison with RSD still bugs me with the price at leats why is Nebula cheper i don't get it, it was meant to be an improvemnt on hull and shields ( I GET why it's not as this ) that's why I think a slight buff to the hull would be good idea and to balnce that give it a bigger price. So let's say hull would be buffed to like 4394 just 200 points and the price that is now 5900 so let's bring it up to like 6300 by 400 credits but that just a sugestion. In my opinion it is a good solution. It doesn't give away it's primary role as an havy hitter from afar and it gives it some more survivability by in a way making it more of an elite ship which it was in the time the mod takes place they weren't very common ( please correcty if I'm wrong on that part).

And yes there are cases where Nebulons were destroyed beaten or what not, but not just to ship to ship combat but rather to enemy tactics, they were overwhelmed, badly used or any other reason. Nebulon is at it's core a Tactical battelship ( figure of speech) to protect lesser ships and to fight some bigger not head to head but smart with some good old tactical manouvers.

On the side note it might be a bug or just nothing is ISD 1 and 2 speed 3.0 with acel 0.3 or is just skirmish. ( NOTE i used it just to check stats of the ships (and have some fun :D ) Not to measure ship to ship combat )

To sum up, I just think that a little buf to some stats is not a wrong thing to do that it will give it more lore friendly vibe and small bits of balance or disbalance it depends on the point of view. I get were you get your reasoning from and I respect that.

I understand that the Nebula isn't weak, and I understand wanting to avoid a role overlap between the Nebula and MC90. I also understand taking multiple sources into account.

With that said, some of the more easily accessible sources (Wookieepedia, Essential Guide to Warfare) places the Nebula as at least on par with the ISD2, so it being massively different in the mod is understandably going to be quite offputting for some players. SiImply shoving the SotG stats at someone who questions the current state of the Nebula, which has happened, isn't exactly the best way to resolve any differences in opinion when those stats, unless I'm horribly misreading something, also puts it about on par with the ISD2.

Somewhat unrelated to the actual state of the Nebula, I feel like it could be relevant to mention that the ISD2 and Nebula are roughly 15-20 years apart. There are many examples of real-life waships being rendered utterly obsolete in shorter timespans than that.

Originally posted by Northstar:

I understand that the Nebula isn't weak, and I understand wanting to avoid a role overlap between the Nebula and MC90. I also understand taking multiple sources into account.

With that said, some of the more easily accessible sources (Wookieepedia, Essential Guide to Warfare) places the Nebula as at least on par with the ISD2, so it being massively different in the mod is understandably going to be quite offputting for some players. SiImply shoving the SotG stats at someone who questions the current state of the Nebula, which has happened, isn't exactly the best way to resolve any differences in opinion when those stats, unless I'm horribly misreading something, also puts it about on par with the ISD2.

Somewhat unrelated to the actual state of the Nebula, I feel like it could be relevant to mention that the ISD2 and Nebula are roughly 15-20 years apart. There are many examples of real-life waships being rendered utterly obsolete in shorter timespans than that.

You could always just mod it yourself in the xml files if you wanted?