While this mod cannot be faulted, one thing to note for anyone using the LWTS Tiered mod:
Due to this mod changing the way O2/H2 Generators and Hydrogen Tanks are calculated, the LWTS tier variants do not work and have all the same stats.

If you want to change this but keep the benefits of say jetpack fuel and oxygen consumption (or anything else this mod changes), you have to delete certain parameters in the HydrogenRebalanceSessionComponent.sc file for the tier versions to work.

Also might want to take a moment to change the efficiency of hydrogen thrusters as well... they consume WAY too little hydrogen. about 5-10 times less efficient still makes them a viable option, especially with the quick ice conversion of the LWTS Tier 5 O2/H2 Generator.


- This is not a complaint to this mod. I quite like this mod, can't fault this one for the incompatibility with another mod which adds different variants that use the same vanilla calculations.

Theres a typo in HydrogenRebalanceSessionComponent.cs line 143 and 150. definition.InventoryMaxVolume is 0.1 for large grid and 1 for small grid.

I have updated some of the calculation in the mod - see the description for changes. I left the hydrogen engine to be somewhat efficient since otherwise it would be totally useless IMO. I tried to explain my intentions behind the calculations, but I am always open for discussion.

One of the last big SE patches did such a rebalance itself. Is it possible that this mod here got a bit interference?

IRL a huge 3 meter hydro engine would drink that in seconds

so i tested this out and the 3 meter/ small large block hydrogen engine does not use that much fuel how is this realistic??? the capasity for the tanks is but the efficency that the hydro has is to much there is no way that i uses 2 L per second thats no that highly unrealistic

Actually what I was hoping for was for this mod to make creating then burning hydrogen fuel an energy-negative process, like in real life. I'm currently building a world with the water mod and I find that energy production via hydrogen is far too easy. However this mod also drastically changes how buoyant the tanks are so maybe this one isn't the best fit.

I'm still not following you on the watt vs joule thing. Watt is a measurement of power over time but you are using it to define how much power it takes to process a fixed amount of ice, with the measure of time not involved at all.

Anyway, thanks for responding. Great work on the mod. It's pretty cool even though I won't be using it.

P.S. I'm not great with creating mods myself but if you want to create a mod that increases the power requirement of H2/O2 generators just beyond what burning the fuel made from them would give you, that'd be pretty cool ;D

As for the 290 W, I know it's not accurate the way it is, I actually meant 290 W output is needed from any power source to process 1 mol of Ice, i.e. 16 KW for 1 Kg.

That being said, this would make O2/H2 generators OP again, so I'll probably still keep the cca. 800 KW max consumption, and make the process 10% efficient, with 5 Kg of ice consumed per second. That would result in 6.5 L H2 per seconds, which in turn would mean that filling a small block large tank (~12 500 L) would require cca. 30 minutes.

Yeah, Hydrogen Engines were added later in the game and while I made a "quick fix" for them, I didn't spend too much time balancing it. I have just recently actually dusted the excel sheet containing the calculations off and started to work on it a bit. As per my current state of mind, I would actually remove hydrogen generation from small block O2/H2 generators or just leave enough to fill bottles. As for the engines themselves, according my current state of mind, they would consume 1.6 L/s H2 per output of 1MW. This would basically mean that 36k ice + 2 LB generators + 1 LB engine would net 3.4 MWh.

Just did some math but haven't tested it yet. Assuming hydrogen engines (which aren't mentioned at all in the description btw) have a 100% efficiency, you should still be very energy positive while turning ice into hydrogen into energy. However, I noticed in this paragraph:

"Normally the electrolysis of H2O would need around 290 KW per mol. 1 kg of ice would be 55 mol, so realisticly, processing 1 kg of ice would require 16 MW of power. That's a bit too much from a game perspective, so the calculations here use 290 W instead."

You use watts as a static measurement of energy when the watt is actually a measurement of change (1J/s). I made my calculations assuming you meant joule instead of watt, but if you meant watt-hour this may have skewed my results significantly. I have yet to actually test this in game.

I hope this mod isn't dead. It looks really nice. With this mod, do you get less energy from burning hydrogen in an engine (not thruster, engine) than it takes to convert it from ice, thus rendering it impossible for a mining vehicle to recharge itself by mining ice?

Thank you for this mod.

Does anyone who uses this mod here have problems with oxygen farms not delivering O2 to tanks?

@Inq182: this mod was inspired by the AHI gas rebalance mod, but the two mods have a lot of overlap, so you shouldn't use both at the same time. This mod also modifies the fuel efficiency of hydrogen thrusters, even modded ones, so you shouldn't need the thruster rebalance either. In fact in the case of thrusters, I think this mod would even overwrite the AHI mod's changes.

@Effrenatus: currently there is a fixed thrust to power ratio (0.4) and a cahnging fuel efficiency value that's determined by calculating a virtual tier of a thruster based on its force magnitude. This effectively means that the mod affects modded thrusters automatically. Currently there is no way to externally change these values. The fuel effeciency values are the same as in the above tables, so if you install the tiered thrusters, you should get the same results as before.

As for the jetpack nerfing question: it depends on what and how the mod changes the jetpack, but since most of those types of mods just overwrite the astronaut definition, I would say yes, they would overwrite the changes of this mod.

How does this compare to the AHI gas rebalance? And does it work well with his AHI thruster rebalance?

Oh, another important question: If I use a Jetpack Nerfing mod, will that overwrite your capacity adjustments?

Do you mean by Tiers 1-5 the tiered Engines that are not include in this mod anymore? Then which line is the one with vanilla thruster values that are relevant for us now?
And can we still achieve those rates (like weak but long burn time) by including the Tiered Thrusters mod additionally?

I have updated some numbers for now and fixed the small O2/H2 generator. I forgot to update it previously. It was actually 50 times faster than intended :) I am not sure yet how I am going to change the small hydrogen engines. Right now both are cc.a 10x efficient than the vanilla ones, but havent tweaked anything in relation to each other (small vs. large). I'll think about it.

As it is right now though the mod has balance/consistency issues with itself.
The two I can remember are that the small grid O2/H2O generator is 25x faster at half the power cost and that the two hydrogen engines both use 0,09L/s but produce 500kW and 5MW. I think 0,09L/s feels about right for 500kW and it is extremely overpowered for 5MW

I'm open if you want someone to bounce ice balance ideas off of :) I don't have any besides what we already discussed

It's not a viable solution for multiplayer worlds, but my solution has to just always settle far way from a lake. For me currently the closest lake is 25km away and through a mountain, and I limit myself to only take ice by rover

Not sure you can nerf it enough when you're on an ice lake. My goal is to be able to use the hydrogen engine to charge batteries, but not without having H2 tanks. I would also want filling H2 tanks to take time and preparation but it probably shouldn't take hours.

Maybe I will compare the engine with the other power generators like solar and wind. Uranium is OP so I don't usually use reactors.

I'm not sure what your goal is, but you could look into nerfing the drill efficiency when mining ice? That would reduce the abundance of ice without breaking playthroughs relying on the moisture vaporator.

Yeah, and probably that's why I haven't done the small grid version either. I think that I slowed down H2 generation because ice is so abundant that there is no other limitation. There has to be kind of a balance between gas capacity and the time required to fill the tanks that at the same time kind of negates the fact that you can have as much ice as you want.

I didn't want to make H2 generation very inefficient either because then it becomes impossible to survive on planets without ice using something like the Moisture Vaporator and since that's another mod I cannot change its ice production...

I just did the math and the hydrogen engine can run at full output (5MW) for 4 hours on only 1000kg of ice, maybe that is too overpowered.

Wow this update changed pretty much all the values.
A few potential wrong values I've spotted:
the small grid hydrogen engine still consumes 100L/s (large grid consumes 0,09L/s)

the large grid gas generator is too slow as it produces 1.3L/s while the small grid produces 32,5L/s at half the electrical power requirement. I think its a speed issue as opposed to a efficiency issue since the faster small grid one also consumes ice at 25x the rate.

I checked all the dedicated storage tanks and they are perfect, or at least are close enough that it seems so. I also checked the 4 thrusters since I was already at it, and they are looking correct too.

With the wrong values in mind, my initial reaction is it all fits together quite nicely.
I still think the jetpack is too efficient or has too much storage. I see no point in ever using bottles even when playing on a planet at 1G (but vanilla is too far to the other side)

On a final note, I haven't done any testing to bottles or throughput in/out from tanks, mainly because I have no idea how to do so consistently.

Just how the changes to the Hydrogen Engine feel, if it's not too overpowered now.

Yes. What do you want me to test?

Well publishing you changes to Steam helps a lot it seems :). You should now see it too. However now I am scared that I didn't upload this, because I haven't finished balancing it. Would you care to make some test and see how it feels?

I made a (local) mod that is literally just the standard space engineers hydrogen engine and put in above your mod in the load order and I'm still getting the same result.
Completely out of ideas now. Is there some way I can create a log file you can take a look at?

I tried deleting the entire folder found at
\Steam\steamapps\common\SpaceEngineers\Content\Data
and redownloading it. Still no luck getting the mod to work as intended on my end :/

No, I disabled all other mods.
Just tried deleting the mod file and loading a new empty world with only this mod enabled and the exact same thing happens.

@Snøfler: not sure what's happening on your side, but I see 1900L as the fuel capacity for the hydrogen engine, so the mod seems to be working fine for me. Could there be another mod that tries to change the hydrogen engine?

Your suit jetpack should last longer than in vanilla. I am planning to check the new changes during the weekend, so we'll see...

My suit jetpack also lasts pretty long on planets, I'd say about 1% a minute at hover in 1G. I never used the mod pre-update so I don't really have a comparison for what it should be like

@Snøfler: thank you for the test! I'll check if something has changed with the new update that made it not work, but I haven't really had time since.

Okay I typed out a really long message before noticing something important that likely completely invalidates it, I have preserved it below anyway.

I suspect that the mod is no longer working for hydrogen engines, both seen in the light of my extensive testing below and from the simple fact that the "internal" storage tank is 500.000L despite my dedicated 2x1 tank "only" being 24500L. I have not found any other bugs, my hydrogen thruster is still consuming at a realistic rate, my gas generator is consuming ice at a reasonable rate at reasonable power levels.

---Original comment---
I think this (for me) completely ruins hydrogen engines. I'm testing around with only this mod loaded and so far all my tests look like this:
I check that my system [i.imgur.com] is empty and my battery levels
I put in 1000kg of ice in the gas generator
I process the ice at a cost of 1000kg of ice and ~4kWh and put it in a hydrogen tank
I turn on my hydrogen engine which uses all the hydrogen and produces ~2kWh

And just a note to the test: spending the hydrogen takes about a second while producing the hydrogen takes a good 20-30 seconds (not measured, just by feel)

I doubt this is realistic and but I genuinely don't know if I have the capability to chec. It however definitely doesn't feel good from a gameplay standpoint.

Exact values from one test:
879,62 kWh
1000kg of ice
0L of hydrogen

875,18 kWh
0kg of ice
1300L of hydrogen

877,03 kWh
0kg of ice
0L of hydrogen

Yes it does.

does this affect hydrogen engines?

Exactly.

So the script dynamically calculates "any" tank, based on the size it has? You don't have to add anything manually? Asking because the new tanks are 2x6x1 (in small grid, the large grid I can't remember), while the old hydrogen tanks are more like 5 x 5 x 5

As far as I know the new tanks are of the same type, so yes it should.

Does it support the "new" small hydrogen tanks that introduced recently in the game?

@darkmist Yes, that answers my question perfectly. I think you should add that explanation to your mod description. Thank you!

@<†>Baigle1<†>™: I am sorry I somehow missed your comment here. I skimmed through your post, nice maths there :) This mod is older than the hydrogen engine and I haven't got to updating it since it came out. That being said I totally agree that the efficiency of the HE is abysmal. I will play with it a little and will adjust its efficiency. Since this mode changes the energy density of hydrogen, it should already be better than its vanilla counterpart, but we'll see.

Gas container capacities in the vanilla game are way overboard, mostly beacuse of the inefficient fuel/gas consumption of the various blocks and even your suit. This mod reduces the capacities of the oxygen and hydrogen tanks (incl. the bottles) but makes the thrusters more efficient and reduces the character's oxygen consumption, so at the end your oxygen and hydrogen will last longer.

The mod doesn't change the force magnitude of the thrusters, but can adjust the fuel effeciency of any modded hydrogen thruster (i.e. when you are using tieres thrusters) up until tier 4 (or 4x the original force magnitude). Above that the fuel efficiency remains the same.

I hope this answers your question.

Can you add a summary of the net effect of this mod? The use of real science appeals to me, but does this mean tanks hold more, or less, than vanilla? Are thrusters stronger or weaker? Do they burn longer or shorter? Does the change in human O2 consumption mean bottles last longer or shorter? You have the raw numbers listed, but I don't know what the vanilla numbers are in order for the modded numbers to be meaningful.

I came up with some #'s that suggest (some of) the Hydrogen Thrusters are too efficient for their fuel consumption compared to the real life SSME RS-25D. Measured from Hydrogen's LHV at the pressure and density Hydrogen would be at straight out of the O2/H2 generator. Its in the comments.

And can you consider making the Hydrogen Engines 166.6x more efficient, to reach 50% efficiency? The game is all over the place.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/244850/discussions/11/2259060348501809031