Will VAT drop tomorrow for German users?

[Scorcher24]

Does Steam even has this on their radar? We got a tax relief and VAT is down to 16%. Most stores already grant the relief, what about Valve?

[Scorcher24]

Yasahi の投稿を引用：

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

You are talking about price discrimination which only refers to local pricing:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm#shortcut-4

The gist of it: You can't be charged more just because of your country of residence

So this does not apply here, since VAT is added on top of the price.

It would be price discrimination to every other EU national not living in Germany, hence why the price will remain the same and only the VAT Valve collects and pays forward will be less. This is how it works with the different VAT rates even now. The game costs the same in country A and B but the VAT Valve collects and pays forward is different.

If a national of country A has price X and national of country B has price Z for the same electronically supplied services on the same website, there's price discrimination.

I suggest you actually read what you linked.

And I suggest you learn what a tax is and that this has nothing to with it.
Anyway, I am done arguing with you.

[Satoru]

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

It is incredible how little people know about these things.

I'd recommend not trying to critique others when your own knowledge of VAT law is so overwhelmingly wrong on many levels

Its funny when you were't complaining about price discrimination when it was obviously already being foisted upon you by definition. Because if you're going to talk that the tax is 'on top' of the price, then congrats, that means that games are fundamentally cheaper in literally every other EU country. Meaning that you've already been paying 'more' for games, by your own defintion.

You can't magically claim that price discrimination doesnt apply, when the logical application of your nonsense fundamentally means it would be applicable, yet you utterly totally ignore that.

I notice a lack of screaming from you when you've been 'overpaying' for games. How odd. its almost as if you don't actually understand how this works!

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

And I suggest you learn what a tax is and that this has nothing to with it.
Anyway, I am done arguing with you.

Its amazing when you simultaneously claim a law applies, and then magicaly says it doesnt the nano-second you're contradicted.

[Crazy Tiger]

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

No, that would mean that the price for Germans gets lower and that is against EU directives. Price, including VAT, has to be the same across the EU.

You are talking about price discrimination which only refers to local pricing:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm#shortcut-4

The gist of it: You can't be charged more just because of your country of residence

So this does not apply here, since VAT is added on top of the price.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about the single digital market strategy.

But let me put it differently. How come in the EU we pay the same price in every country, yet VAT rates are different in all those countries? Please, do explain that.

[Yasahi]

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

Yasahi の投稿を引用：

It would be price discrimination to every other EU national not living in Germany, hence why the price will remain the same and only the VAT Valve collects and pays forward will be less. This is how it works with the different VAT rates even now. The game costs the same in country A and B but the VAT Valve collects and pays forward is different.

If a national of country A has price X and national of country B has price Z for the same electronically supplied services on the same website, there's price discrimination.

I suggest you actually read what you linked.

And I suggest you learn what a tax is and that this has nothing to with it.
Anyway, I am done arguing with you.

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

That isn't how this works at all. VAT is added on the price, there is only an obligation to show it with the tax included. Your receipt shows the price without tax, the tax and the end price. If you are a business, shopping en gross, you see the prices without VAT, because businesses don't pay them in most cases. It is called sales tax for a reason, it is only paid by end customers. If you are the last customer in the chain, you pay sales tax: https://i.imgur.com/u52jI2i.png

It is incredible how little people know about these things.

You're the one calling VAT a sales tax when it's not a sales tax. You're the one claiming businesses don't pay it when they do in many cases. Even the VAT exemption for intra-community supply/trading has certain criteria that must be met. There's plenty of cases where VAT can't be refunded and for example when importing from outside the EU the importer is responsible for the VAT return and paying VAT on the imports.

It is indeed incredible how little people know about VAT.

[wuddih]

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

It is incredible how little people know about these things.

Ach echt?
Rate mal woher ich es besser weiß ...

it is not relevant what "Steuersenkungspreise" your local ALDI promotes. that is PROMOTION, they legally would have to do nothing with the prices and check the receipt there,
the product listing mentions the full price and at the end just the taxes get excerpted.

Steam just uses the same receipt listing for everything, they do not have to do it that way but that also doesn't mean the tax gets added on top, because it doesn''t.

you put stuff in your cart for 9,99€
whatever tax that european country has, gets excerpted on the receipt.

it is not relevant what this tax is, it was already included in the price when you added the product to your cart.

[JVC]

The total price including VAT is the same for all customers in the EU. Valve calculates backwards from the total amount to determine what fraction is the VAT for the country in question.

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

wuddih の投稿を引用：

it is not added on top, it is already included in the price.

That isn't how this works at all. VAT is added on the price, there is only an obligation to show it with the tax included. Your receipt shows the price without tax, the tax and the end price. If you are a business, shopping en gross, you see the prices without VAT, because businesses don't pay them in most cases. It is called sales tax for a reason, it is only paid by end customers. If you are the last customer in the chain, you pay sales tax: https://i.imgur.com/u52jI2i.png

It is incredible how little people know about these things.

No. When a physical store or internet store in Denmark advertises a price, it is allowed to show only one price, the one including VAT. [Moms]. It is the same deal here.

It is only permissible to display prices without VAT if the customer is a business. And bear in mind, all business customers still have to pay the price including VAT, only they can get a deduction for paid VAT at a later date. All customers here are private individuals, so we're only allowed to see one price before making the purchase, the one including VAT.

The invoice we receive after making the purchase specifies what is VAT and what is the price without tax, but that's irrelevant since we only see that information after paying.

[rawWwRrr]

Or, more importantly, Valve deducts VAT from the prices that the publishers set for a specific region/country. So if there's anyone OP should confront about the prices dropping due to a deduction of VAT of any specific game in OP's country, they should direct that question to the publishers who decided on the price to begin with.

Valve is merely facilitating the sale and distributing the money to the correct entities. They are not deciding on what exactly the sale price is.

[Leonard J. Crabs]

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

The invoice we receive after making the purchase specifies what is VAT and what is the price without tax, but that's irrelevant since we only see that information after paying.

Yeah, but for me that is price discrimination. So if I pay say 50€ and someone from another country with a different VAT rate pays 50€, that means the base price is different for me, because I live in another country. That is discrimination.

With 19% VAT I pay 42€ + 8€ VAT. Someone with 25% VAT pays 40€ + 10€ VAT.

How is that not a different price?

[Satoru]

Leonard J. Crabs の投稿を引用：

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

The invoice we receive after making the purchase specifies what is VAT and what is the price without tax, but that's irrelevant since we only see that information after paying.

Yeah, but for me that is price discrimination. So if I pay say 50€ and someone from another country with a different VAT rate pays 50€, that means the base price is different for me, because I live in another country. That is discrimination.

With 19% VAT I pay 42€ + 8€ VAT. Someone with 25% VAT pays 40€ + 10€ VAT.

How is that not a different price?

Such logic has no place in the OP's world

[Chompman]

Leonard J. Crabs の投稿を引用：

Scorcher24 の投稿を引用：

The invoice we receive after making the purchase specifies what is VAT and what is the price without tax, but that's irrelevant since we only see that information after paying.

Yeah, but for me that is price discrimination. So if I pay say 50€ and someone from another country with a different VAT rate pays 50€, that means the base price is different for me, because I live in another country. That is discrimination.

With 19% VAT I pay 42€ + 8€ VAT. Someone with 25% VAT pays 40€ + 10€ VAT.

How is that not a different price?

That's up to the publishers setting the price they want and it's economics not discrimination as not all currencies are equal to one another.

[wuddih]

Leonard J. Crabs の投稿を引用：

Yeah, but for me that is price discrimination. So if I pay say 50€ and someone from another country with a different VAT rate pays 50€, that means the base price is different for me, because I live in another country. That is discrimination.

With 19% VAT I pay 42€ + 8€ VAT. Someone with 25% VAT pays 40€ + 10€ VAT.

How is that not a different price?

the EU "discrimination" law on this is not relevant .. that is also hugely misinterpreted. that law just states that a merchant can not prevent you (f.e. ia geolocation blocking) from using the price of another european country, if offered.

on Steam all Euro countries have the same price. so that law is entirely meaningless.
any taxes are not relevant for "price discrimination". VAT has to be included in the prices for "normal humans" per EU law.

you both pay 50€. it is not relevant how much taxes get excerpted.

the store prices on Steam are entered by the product owners with taxes included(except US) and that is why the 19 to 16% temporary VAT change in Germany is entirely non-relevant.

how much tax gets excerpted is entirely Valves responsibility and they are doing it correctly for Germany. starting 1st july you will see 16% as excepted tax on your receipt.

of course the game prices are not gonna change for Germany. that would require the product owner to change the entire Euro price for everyone, which they are obviously not gonna do because one of 2 dozen countries did a lil temporary tax change.

and again. prices on video games are arbitrary and video games are non-essential.
so the product owner decided you example game is worth 50€. tax changes in your country are not relevant, because that 50€ already included any form of taxes.

[Leonard J. Crabs]

wuddih の投稿を引用：

the EU "discrimination" law on this is not relevant .. that is also hugely misinterpreted. that law just states that a merchant can not prevent you (f.e. ia geolocation blocking) from using the price of another european country, if offered.

That is not entirely correct. Of course a merchant cannot limit your access, because you are from a differnt country, but he also is not allowed to offer different prices for different countries.

Unfortunately the law does not explicitly say what a different price means. Of course, they need to be flexible and have to keep the lawyers busy.

There was even a case, the Disneyland case, where the same package for Disneyland Paris was around ~1900€ if you ordered from France, but ~2400€ if you ordered from Germany.

[cinedine]

Leonard J. Crabs の投稿を引用：

wuddih の投稿を引用：

the EU "discrimination" law on this is not relevant .. that is also hugely misinterpreted. that law just states that a merchant can not prevent you (f.e. ia geolocation blocking) from using the price of another european country, if offered.

That is not entirely correct. Of course a merchant cannot limit your access, because you are from a differnt country, but he also is not allowed to offer different prices for different countries.

Unfortunately the law does not explicitly say what a different price means. Of course, they need to be flexible and have to keep the lawyers busy.

There was even a case, the Disneyland case, where the same package for Disneyland Paris was around ~1900€ if you ordered from France, but ~2400€ if you ordered from Germany.

Re-read the case. Germans (and British) were excluded from having the same offer as French, which is exactly as wuddih stated. You CAN have different prices for different regions as long as you allow Nation A to purchase for the same as Nation B.

Example:
https://www.musicstore.com/en_FR/EUR/Rockson-PB-Electric-Bass-Black/art-BAS0010467-000
https://www.musicstore.de/en_DE/EUR/Rockson-PB-Electric-Bass-Black/art-BAS0010467-000
https://www.musicstore.com/en_DK/DKK/Rockson-PB-Electric-Bass-Black/art-BAS0010467-000

And yes, that's thanks to VAT, which also proves the guy wrong saying the sticker price must be the same ...