Multiple levels

[R3DSKULL]

I would love to see multiple levels not just on one plane. Many isometric games do that. This game would really be great if you could built ships vertically as well as on the flat plane.

[Shorebuck]

Agreed, I feel like it would add a lot of possibilities for builds, mainly for organizing sections it would be so much easier to just build second or third levels above a dormitory for instance to meet needs for added beds.. I imagine it would add difficulty with AI pathing, the flight of shuttles and fighters, or away team derelict exploration (would need to be able to go up and down in space). it would also add complexity in programming how to place hull blocks and objects in a 3D interface as opposed to a 2D plane. On a 2D plane gravity naturally goes up-down, even in zero gravity of space. But if 3D space is added I feel it would add quite a bit of complexity to be properly implemented.

Anyways yeah just adding other levels, accessible by stairwells or ladders, elevators etc, that would be pretty huge for making builds less annoying. Just not sure if it's realistic beyond that... Maybe just a very basic system like in Dwarf Fortress where you can cycle the level that's in view.

[Krieger]

lol, necro, it's been asked for several times, there's a fresh post going around atm aswell, i'd like it too but apparently, it's never going to happen.

[Van Hexing]

Originally posted by R3DSKULL:

I would love to see multiple levels not just on one plane. Many isometric games do that.

Which ones??
I'd really love to see at least one!

Just do not offer pseudo multilevel like Overcrowd (only one level is possible over each title, just at different heights), or those who live in one vertical plane (like the News Tower), or genuinely 3D ones like Timberborn (which by the way deals with "exterior" multilevel building rather than "interior" one -- it's a big difference).

If Space Haven 2 is genuinely multilevel, and this won't destroy the game, Askel will deserve a Nobel prize in game design.

It's incredibly difficult to make an isometric GUI allowing to manage the interior of a multilevel building.

[Sam Look]

Personally I see no real value in it and it adds massive complexity I don't feel the game needs.

But then I'm old and grew up with asci dungeon crawlers.

[Death Approaches]

your age has nothing to do with the complexity; if Shore played the early station builds, where we were getting 4, 6 ships on top of each other, on top and under our station, trying to click what you wanted to became impossible, even zooming all the way out wasn't feasible in many situations, and good luck if there was drafted crew you were trying to control! the game had no idea what layer you were pointing at and tried to move them from the derelict back to the station, got confused, and just stood there.

how in the hell would you navigate multiple layers, just switching view mods would become
a spammy clickfest! how would turret placement work in 3D, or fighter launch bays, or... it would require a total rewrite. it's not gonna happen. but dreaming... dreaming is free.

(that last bit was for Sam, he might catch the Blondie lyrics from the '70s)

[R3DSKULL]

Originally posted by Death Approaches:

your age has nothing to do with the complexity; if Shore played the early station builds, where we were getting 4, 6 ships on top of each other, on top and under our station, trying to click what you wanted to became impossible, even zooming all the way out wasn't feasible in many situations, and good luck if there was drafted crew you were trying to control! the game had no idea what layer you were pointing at and tried to move them from the derelict back to the station, got confused, and just stood there.

how in the hell would you navigate multiple layers, just switching view mods would become
a spammy clickfest! how would turret placement work in 3D, or fighter launch bays, or... it would require a total rewrite. it's not gonna happen. but dreaming... dreaming is free.

(that last bit was for Sam, he might catch the Blondie lyrics from the '70s)

I am confused by this many games have multi levels with this type of gfx style. All the xcom games you can simply pause and set levels with a shift scroll feature or any other button combos or a button the same way the walls disappear. You should go play Xenonaughts or Xcom they did this forever ago. If the game was in real time it would be more to what you say. But when you can pause and move where you want and caluculate then click its fine. So Navigation of levels i mean even all the final fantasy tactics games had this multi level feature since the 90s soo..... Kinda find your arguement baseless.

[Death Approaches]

that's because you're not a programmer, so of course you have no idea of the complexity involved. but the man issue is, it was never conceived that way, they'd have to rewrite large portions of the entire game; every single class would need some retooling to accommodate this, and then comes how the game is actually played, the mechanics of traversal, of work queues, not just basics like distance calculations being in 3D, just imagine space combat with turrets on top, sides, bottom of the vessel alone... that one singular thing is actually dozens of things.

then, how would you display it? data is just data until it's presented in a clear manner; how would you see individual decks, overall ship plans and layouts, efficiency of O2 dispersal and gas removal?

sure lots of games have multi-level design, some are independent separate layers, others integrated... but when you had that in mind when you started, that's one thing. what you're requesting is essentially a Space Haven 2: The Sequel. there's no way anyone in their right mind would start such a huge game-altering thing at this point. with ONE main developer? when do you want this game? 2036? 46?

[R3DSKULL]

Originally posted by Death Approaches:

that's because you're not a programmer, so of course you have no idea of the complexity involved. but the man issue is, it was never conceived that way, they'd have to rewrite large portions of the entire game; every single class would need some retooling to accommodate this, and then comes how the game is actually played, the mechanics of traversal, of work queues, not just basics like distance calculations being in 3D, just imagine space combat with turrets on top, sides, bottom of the vessel alone... that one singular thing is actually dozens of things.

then, how would you display it? data is just data until it's presented in a clear manner; how would you see individual decks, overall ship plans and layouts, efficiency of O2 dispersal and gas removal?

sure lots of games have multi-level design, some are independent separate layers, others integrated... but when you had that in mind when you started, that's one thing. what you're requesting is essentially a Space Haven 2: The Sequel. there's no way anyone in their right mind would start such a huge game-altering thing at this point. with ONE main developer? when do you want this game? 2036? 46?

Righhhhht. So while I understand its complex they are according to the Dev "we" not a single person unless that changed. But layered Tile maps are a simple way to make elevation changes using level 1 2 3 so on. This game uses a tile system it seems. The libGDX engine can more than easily do this. It can use 3d rendering with a Fixed, or orthrographic camera to create the "isometric" style view as a more robust style solution for physics, collisions and level geometry. You can carry on about data is data but it could be done.

As for development time look how long games like Project Zombiod have been changing and in development and made major changes within engine. Maybe it would be a better idea to run it in a sequel or maybe not. Sequels require creating an entirely new game instead of expanding upon one that is already very good.

I feel a game like this would benefit from Layers being able to do common sense things like the ability to place solar panels on a roof, or to make roof act as an elevated surface. or for building space ships using tiers. as for your question about the O2 would work it would be on a layer by layer bases, using stairs or open areas as bleed through. You seem to be making it seems like its so super complex, yet there are so many games that already do this. Yes AI pathing would need upgrades but then again the real issue would just be in the transitions between levels and recognition of multi layers. But with Turrets why do they have to be on the bottom? They would be on top still but on each layer. But it would be the same as if something is blocking the turret on its same level it would not be able to shoot through things. They would act on each layer.

There is an entire Stack Overflow post about it explained for LibGDX for multi-level isometric, for city games. Using Z - index sorting changing draw order with tons of programming examples. I can go on and on. If the code is to complicated can always use AI you know the thing that will make programmers obsolete soon according to one of AI's top programmers Dr. Roman Yampolsky. But seems more like you just wanna win your point of view rather than consider the reality of the fact it can be done and would make a huge leap in the quality and value of this game. Just like adding station mode did. Sorry we will just have to agree to Disagree.

And before you say the generic "go make your own game" garbage The IP is already owned and I like this game, and as someone enjoying the game I can see value in adding things it would highly benefit from to make it only that much better. As this topic is in Suggestions I am going to continue to make suggestions as this one is a great one and would be very much appreciated to overall game experience. If the dev team wants help they can always throw me a rope id be happy to help.

[Van Hexing]

I do not think the coding is very difficult,
I think adapting the UI to multiple levels is incredibly complicated.
I would be super happy if the devs manage to resolve it, but for now I cannot invent a proper interface even in my imagination.

All the examples of games with multiple levels in this thread so far are turn based squad tactical fighters.
Such games require monitoring around 12 points of attention (like 4 fighters and 8 major enemies) in a strictly turn based manner, i.e. not simultaneously.

Here the in-game world simulation should let you monitor dosens of points of attention simultaneously.
This is impossible unless you can view different levels at the same time, or unless genuenly multilevel objects are scarce, like in Timberborn.

Besides this general problem, more particular issues appear everywhere.
In the current game, it is important that you see the expected coverage of an energy node while you are moving a blueprint with your mouse to choose a place for it. How do you imagine it shows us the expected coverage across multiple levels?

Can you give examples of real time games in which you can build one giant multilevel building, and view/manage multiple characters moving across its rooms?
Note that games like Timberborn or X-com are completely diferent from this (see above), and games like Overcrowd do not actually allow genuine multilevel (there is only one level above each tile, though at different height).

[R3DSKULL]

Originally posted by Van Hexing:

I do not think the coding is very difficult,
I think adapting the UI to multiple levels is incredibly complicated.
I would be super happy if the devs manage to resolve it, but for now I cannot invent a proper interface even in my imagination.

All the examples of games with multiple levels in this thread so far are turn based squad tactical fighters.
Such games require monitoring around 12 points of attention (like 4 fighters and 8 major enemies) in a strictly turn based manner, i.e. not simultaneously.

Here the in-game world simulation should let you monitor dosens of points of attention simultaneously.
This is impossible unless you can view different levels at the same time, or unless genuenly multilevel objects are scarce, like in Timberborn.

Besides this general problem, more particular issues appear everywhere.
In the current game, it is important that you see the expected coverage of an energy node while you are moving a blueprint with your mouse to choose a place for it. How do you imagine it shows us the expected coverage across multiple levels?

Can you give examples of real time games in which you can build one giant multilevel building, and view/manage multiple characters moving across its rooms?
Note that games like Timberborn or X-com are completely diferent from this (see above), and games like Overcrowd do not actually allow genuine multilevel (there is only one level above each tile, though at different height).

Project Zomboid. you can build your own house in the woods and move among many levels all at once. They do an element of it in Humanitz but Zomboid is the one that jumps into my mind where you can have multilevel they even have skyscrapers now and each floor is available with zombies and all sorts of things going on. But if something isnt rendered until you swap to different levels then its more just keeping track of it behind the scenes until it needs to be rendered i.e you swap levels with your shift mouse wheel or whatever command or click on the level changing icon. Also Xcom was turned based but the newer one was action based. This game pauses at any point. Also if we get to more advances games like space engineers or empyrion galactic survival the ships have different levels while i know this type of game is different its still done in 3d realtime.

As for energy node why does it have to scale vertically? lets use Star trek for example you could have small nodes that only work in one floor across a space. you would need specialized types to cross layers. like one that shunts upwards and has the same coverage up and down and its like a module. no different than anything you place now that occupies said space like turrets. They require say 5 blocks of space on the level you are on. But above you the turret is active in the same space. Why couldnt you have a multi level power node that covers say 10x10 blocks and above since its a 2 story version covers 10x10 on level 1 and 10x10 on level 2. or you could just place 2 small one seperately and it would treat it like slices. The Ui would have a slices selection on the side, up slices down slices you can pause the game at any time so you can just swap slices or just move up and down in realtime. designated tiles would be multilevel but non mutlilevel tiles wouldnt matter they would just be the same only change what slice they are operating on.

I mean with slices if i have things build on say level 1 of my ship engines engineering and so on why cant i have a turbolift/elevator or a ladder/stairs up to the next floor and its the same concept as the bottom floor but its now level two. What would need to be up there if it was say crew quarters? things like o2 or gasses which could be independant per level like a starship would be. I mean any AI game that has to apply aspect per slice or level would have its own set of effects so on. level slices are the way to go in a game like this. the stairs.ladder or elevator or cargo elevators could be up down style. there could be floor vents you can place on the tile set that references data from tile below or above and has certain true false style is o2 flowing yes or no so on. I am pretty sure thats how vents work correct me if im wrong. I do not think its is so hard to think in 3d in a world that has it. I mean ships move underneath then fly by turning a different color and just appearing to fly through but they sure look like they move levels. again slices is my thoughts.

Oh i remember another game Dwarf fortress does multi level on so many different aspects. I think rimworld does to but i never played that.

[Lucknight]

This idea has already been discussed; it's not a technical issue, it's a resource issue. The game is being made by a team of only three people, I guess: one programmer, one graphic artist, and one game content designer. Since the game's early release in 2020, there have been many major and valuable updates, but they're still adding new content, showing the game's immense potential and content. This three-person team can only focus on the main content and direction they've outlined for the official release. Adding more decks to the ships would complicate their work and potentially slow down their progress. Hopefully, this idea will be implemented after the game's official release, when they have more money to build a larger dev team.

[R3DSKULL]

Originally posted by Lucknight:

This idea has already been discussed; it's not a technical issue, it's a resource issue. The game is being made by a team of only three people, I guess: one programmer, one graphic artist, and one game content designer. Since the game's early release in 2020, there have been many major and valuable updates, but they're still adding new content, showing the game's immense potential and content. This three-person team can only focus on the main content and direction they've outlined for the official release. Adding more decks to the ships would complicate their work and potentially slow down their progress. Hopefully, this idea will be implemented after the game's official release, when they have more money to build a larger dev team.

for sure this makes total sense, but does not meant we cant suggest or talk about it. Maybe the team will work on it in the background like Starcitizen was working on VR in the background. In the end its ok, Look at hello games right, they were 4 people when they first made no mans sky. They accomplished amazing things and grew. So indy devs are the most epic game makers. I have faith these devs could keep building things and keep going. Also if a game has a modding community they love to help when devs are low on resources.