Dps metter, parsers, overlay tools, macros?

[Logicflow]

Has one been made for bless? will one be built-in? and can we make custom addons to change overlay icons and add macros? I have a naga for macros but is their a command editing in-game to make it more clean?

Update: The topic has shifted more to whether it should exist thefore I have marked Fhaerron's post because it has the best awnser to this question and provides story of how he used it to become a better player.

[Unending]

That is a good question, thats one thing that made WoW so good, you could install addons and make macros. I think having a dps meter is vital too, we need to get away from the carebear, everyone gets a trophy mindset, if your DPS sucks everyone should be able to see it.

[Aleksi]

Originally posted by Unending:

That is a good question, thats one thing that made WoW so good, you could install addons and make macros. I think having a dps meter is vital too, we need to get away from the carebear, everyone gets a trophy mindset, if your DPS sucks everyone should be able to see it.

I believe that is not needed for serious business and in casual pugs it can only strive toxic behavior.

[Rogbarz]

While I do not mind some macro's and addons to change the UI and etc. I do believe that allowing any form of dps meter would only damage the community. It creates a toxic a behavior if you believe it or not.

Agro and Dps should be based on skill not some addon. Besides that if you want to see if someones dps is bad or is bad tank ... you will find out pretty fast without them.

A lot of things that WoW did are great and pushed the MMO genre, but while WoW was not the only game to allow Addons it did make them mainstream and also helped to create toxic communities.

MMO's are about working together and doing things as a team to get better. It's also a social experience. :)

[Raie]

Originally posted by rogbarz:

Agro and Dps should be based on skill not some addon. Besides that if you want to see if someones dps is bad or is bad tank ... you will find out pretty fast without them.

Well holdon there partner. Good tank, bad tank, easily evident?


This is a vast oversimplification. Categorizing a tank as "bad" just because they lose aggro (in a game that doesn't show aggro) isn't necessarily a sign of a bad tank.

I mean, consider the following:
-If a tank pushes aggro to the max (push it to the limit, yeah baby!), does that make him / her a good tank?

NOPE! They probably have no cooldowns ready, meaning they have NO SNAP AGGRO potential. (unexpected adds, etc = wipe) They also probably are contributing poor DPS, given enmity != DPS. [eg, could phase push faster]

-If a tank is borderline on enmity (optimizing DPS), and they lose aggro / someone dies (perhaps a DPS gets a lucky crit-chain / procs, it happens). Are they a "bad tank"? Given every % DPS matters in progression, and given healers and tanks are DPSing in any "real content", I'd argue no.


A healer can see the HP of party members, they're not blind / are provided a HUD for doing their job. A tank is similarly a support job, optimized like a healer. Why shouldn't a tank be able to see the enmity of "at least" the next two players in line?

Imagine if a healer was throwing cures blind (with no idea how injured the tank is) how well they'd optimize "DPS" or MP expense. What are they supposed to do? Parse the log and compute the damage the tank is receiving with their brain?


^ Either way the meter doesn't have to be provided to the entire party. Full party enmity doesn't even have to be displayed... A tank only cares who's next in line (the next 1-2 runners up) for taking hate. EDIT: And the distance from "the tank", eg if overhate is imminent.

[**distance could be displayed as a delta, with no "absolute" number, making deriving DPS from enmity not possible**]

[Forseti]

I seriously doubt it will allow mods. None of the other versions do. It runs the same anti-cheat system as BDO. You can make macros in any game. All gaming keyboards, mice, and gamepads have macro capabilities. You will never been punished for using these types, in any game. Even WoW cracked down on in game script written macros years ago. As it stands now in the other versions, any modification of the game files is fixed before you are done with the launcher.

[Rampant Luck]

Originally posted by Rena:

Originally posted by rogbarz:

Agro and Dps should be based on skill not some addon. Besides that if you want to see if someones dps is bad or is bad tank ... you will find out pretty fast without them.

Well holdon there partner. Good tank, bad tank, easily evident?


This is a vast oversimplification. Categorizing a tank as "bad" just because they lose aggro (in a game that doesn't show aggro) isn't necessarily a sign of a bad tank.

I mean, consider the following:
-If a tank pushes aggro to the max (push it to the limit, yeah baby!), does that make him / her a good tank?

NOPE! They probably have no cooldowns ready, meaning they have NO SNAP AGGRO potential. (unexpected adds, etc = wipe) They also probably are contributing poor DPS, given enmity != DPS. [eg, could phase push faster]

-If a tank is borderline on enmity (optimizing DPS), and they lose aggro / someone dies (perhaps a DPS gets a lucky crit-chain / procs, it happens). Are they a "bad tank"? Given every % DPS matters in progression, and given healers and tanks are DPSing in any "real content", I'd argue no.


A healer can see the HP of party members, they're not blind / are provided a HUD for doing their job. A tank is similarly a support job, optimized like a healer. Why shouldn't a tank be able to see the enmity of "at least" the next two players in line?

Imagine if a healer was throwing cures blind (with no idea how injured the tank is) how well they'd optimize "DPS" or MP expense. What are they supposed to do? Parse the log and compute the damage the tank is receiving with their brain?


^ Either way the meter doesn't have to be provided to the entire party. Full party enmity doesn't even have to be displayed... A tank only cares who's next in line (the next 1-2 runners up) for taking hate. EDIT: And the distance from "the tank", eg if overhate is imminent.

[**distance could be displayed as a delta, with no "absolute" number, making deriving DPS from enmity not possible**]

They said nothing about what their criteria of being a good tank is, so I have no idea why you jumped to holding aggro, and I do agree with them that more often than not, a bad tank will make themselves known shortly after starting a dungeon.

The major quality I look for to see if I'm with a good tank are
Are they showing awareness?


How I know if a tank has good awareness;

Do they see the patrol that aggro'ed onto the healer, and how will they react to it?
Are they paying attention to the party's health and realizing the skill of the healer?
Are they seeing what the healer's mana is at?
Can they see the big bad spot on the floor that's dealing massive damage to any who step in it?
Are they using defensives wisely?

All of these you can see within the first couple pulls. If you see none of these and are the healer, you are likely in for a terrible run.


As to an addon to track party threat, it really depends on the game. If the threat mechanic actually requires skill, then it's nice to have. If however it's closer to current WoW, then such an addon is near useless.

[Raie]

Originally posted by mamberu:

They said nothing about what their criteria of being a good tank is, so I have no idea why you jumped to holding aggro, and I do agree with them that more often than not, a bad tank will make themselves known shortly after starting a dungeon.

I drew that conclusion from:
> Agro and Dps should be based on skill not some addon.

I assumed that this meant "skill" in doing DPS equates to having a good rotation and high damage uptime (eg, efficient dodging). Hearing aggro in the same sentence as DPS and nothing else (also linked with "skill"), I concluded (perhaps prematurely) that the analogy was something like this...

"You don't need a DPS-meter to know if your DPS are good, because the mobs dying tells you all you need to know. Similarly you don't need an aggro-meter to tell you if a tank is good, because you'll know if the tank isn't holding hate."


--The reason that I jump to a conclusion like the above, is since this is the common concept of a tank's role from "non-tanks" in games (up until RAID-content). That tanking is no different than having an efficient rotation and generating the highest possible enmity.

^ Of course, tanking is vastly different from DPSing in that excess enmity is potentially waste / inefficient. Just like overhealing is inefficient.

Originally posted by mamberu:

The major quality I look for to see if I'm with a good tank are
Are they showing awareness?


How I know if a tank has good awareness;

Do they see the patrol that aggro'ed onto the healer, and how will they react to it?
Are they paying attention to the party's health and realizing the skill of the healer?
Are they seeing what the healer's mana is at?
Can they see the big bad spot on the floor that's dealing massive damage to any who step in it?
Are they using defensives wisely?

All of these you can see within the first couple pulls. If you see none of these and are the healer, you are likely in for a terrible run.


As to an addon to track party threat, it really depends on the game. If the threat mechanic actually requires skill, then it's nice to have. If however it's closer to current WoW, then such an addon is near useless.

> Are they showing awareness?
-- Indeed, this is extremely important. A tank must be aware of all mob mechanics, player locations, partrols (or mob "pops"), etc.

All of your points on awareness are valid. However, I would go a step further in asking:
-- What is the tank's damage output? (max threat != max DPS)
-- Is the tank interrupting enemy attacks? (attacks ended / waiting to disrupt)
-- How fast can the tank generate aggro on a new add? (eg, pre-readied combo withheld, skills held back)


I know, it'll be argued that damage isn't the job of a tank. Yet keep in mind that I'm coming from games where bosses are optimized to the point that Tanks and Healers are expected to participate in DPS.

Since we know that boss AI is being redesigned to be more interactive, I am more concerned with "endgame content" than anything here. Specifically how much mob AI / classes are redesigned around disruption, aggro resets, and the need for snap aggro & burst-down.


It's very hard for a tank to safely optimize things like their DPS output without knowing how fast competing DPS are generating threat.

[Aleksi]

In WoW you can see enemy threat in their tooltip. It's not hard to implement built-in threat display.

[MrDeeps2]

I see a small percentage of people always argue about DPS meter's when a new MMORPG is about to come out, if it should be supported or not. The thing is what i have noticed from my own experience playing MMORPG's for over 15y that most of the MMORPG's that do not support add-ons kinda fall behind. Also the non-supported addon MMORPG'S are very very unbalanced class wise, dev's can protect themselves from the community because of that. Why? Because of lazy class design or rotations and the BIG gap between classes, will not be noticed that easily without addon's. So recently you see dps addon's in SWTOR, FF14 and GW2 games that have raids and i think RIFT also with these addons the playerbase can mix max the potential of their class to get better. In no way it is to trash talk players and to let them know how BIG your D-ck is. Having the addon support makes the developers aware that they need to balance classes in game be it in PVE or PVP, because the community is analyzing and posting feedback on the forums about it. Now we have a small part of the playerbase in every MMORPG that do not put any work into the dungeon or Raid and blame the rest why the group fails, now with addon support you can clearly correct these BAD players and make them aware what they should do get better instead to trash talk players that put their time intoo a evening of dungeon or raids. No one wants lazy players that f-up other players pressures time that want to play their favorit MMORPG. Also what we should totally not ignore, addon support encourages the community to be creative and grow even larger. So i do not see any place for the NEJ Sayers for addon support they are like SJW for me to be honest. WHy would you not want it? You want to improve to help your fellow gamers to get better and to work together to progress. Take an example at WOW, wow would not be still that relevant without addon's I can tell you that, they would lose like 40% of the current playerbase in 1 day if they would announce no addon support. Not because players are used to it, because players like to get better and to point out unbalanced stuff towards the dev's, without addon's that drive to get better is not present anymore because you cannot monitor it to have an indication on what to work on and that takes away the fun.
I can tell you if Bless online would go live with addon support, so much more player’s would play that game I would bet easily 5k on it.

[Aleksi]

Even if they plan to implement support for addons later, I wouldn't bet it will be there for the Early Access.

[Raie]

Originally posted by KappAdmiral:

In WoW you can see enemy threat in their tooltip. It's not hard to implement built-in threat display.

Yep, even a single bar without names for our target-hud would do. We're honestly easy to please. (although I'd like to see distance to the next-two)


--With tank-swaps ("IF" such a mechanic is incorporated into Bless)... even a single bar showing the distance to the next-person (in threat) under yourself would be more than sufficient.

With an OT and swaps, both tanks would assume that the other then maintains position #2 in threat. eg, it'd be your partner's job to judge how much excess is needed over the DPS or healer, and you clock off them accordingly.


^ I personally have a hard time seeing why people would oppose this. It's a minimum useful detail that pretty much only helps tanks.

[Dolphin]

There should be a DPS meter.

[Aleksi]

Originally posted by Dolphin:

There should be a DPS meter.

I beg to differ.

[MrDeeps2]

Originally posted by KappAdmiral:

Originally posted by Dolphin:

There should be a DPS meter.

I beg to differ.

Explain? I ‘am very curios where your thinking originates from really, instead giving a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ answer that most of us are familiar with people that are against dps meters. So explain your point of few on this?

[Malvarose]

DPS meters are cancer.