Pay 2 Accelerate and Pay 2 Win are two different things.

[Severan]

*Buying in game gear locked behind skill (raid gear) = pay 2 win.
*Buying in game currency that lets you buy items (auction house or vendor) = pay 2 win.
Both of these lets you skip having to play the game to acquire items. Which ultimately is buying time but also skips the skill part of the game.

*Buying an xp boost to access content faster to earn in game gear faster(thus you still having to do the work using your skill) = pay 2 accelerate.
*Buying inventory slots so you dont have to return to town as many times thus saving in travel time (giving you more play time to use your skills to aquire loot) = pay 2 accelerate.

*Buying time vs buying power.

Buying time means you still have to invest time and use skill to get where you need to go. That is not pay 2 win. That is a convenience.

Buying power lets you skip the skill part and all of the time investment. Thats what pay 2 win is. If you get 15% more rep gain or honor gain or xp gain, that is just a time convenience.

Everyone has a different version of what pay 2 win is and obviously there is many more examples. But before you shout P2W because your favorite streamer is, at least get informed what it truly is as defined by the majority audience. I imagine pay 2 win has an evolving meaning as games evolve as do features.

If you truly believe something they said is pay 2 win and you arent just trolling to make the game look worse than it is, then make sure you follow it up with a reason why you think its unfair. Dont just say it is and then move on. Remember your emissarys can submit feedback and get it changed with enough convincing. But also remember there is actual pay 2 win elements in games, and conveniences arent that.

[yoda gaming]

pay 2 accelerate= pay to be above everyone else = pay to win?

[Chays]

you speak from a free to play game? or from a buy to play + premium + cash shop game?

[Legion]

Larry la Ardilla que tiembla eredeti hozzászólása:

pay 2 accelerate= pay to be above everyone else = pay to win?

^ this

I understand wanting to "level" past people, but paying for it is retarded and is p2w. FFXIV had the right idea of it whereby, you got a ring that gave 30% exp (which everyone could get for free) upon reaching level 17 and doing the, Hall of the Novice, tasks. This is laughable.

[ChunksAhoy!]

Legion_Ent eredeti hozzászólása:

Larry la Ardilla que tiembla eredeti hozzászólása:

pay 2 accelerate= pay to be above everyone else = pay to win?

^ this

I understand wanting to "level" past people, but paying for it is retarded and is p2w. FFXIV had the right idea of it whereby, you got a ring that gave 30% exp (which everyone could get for free) upon reaching level 17 and doing the, Hall of the Novice, tasks. This is laughable.

They also sell insta-level 60 in the shop soo...just sayin'

[TheCaveMan]

What is getting an extra dungeon raid per day considered?

[Ky'aria]

Unfortunately, Pay-to-win, Pay-to-accelerate, and Pay-For-Convneience, are all under the same umbrella.

They just have varying levels of offense/impact/community acceptance.

[sorakm]

Legion_Ent eredeti hozzászólása:

Larry la Ardilla que tiembla eredeti hozzászólása:

pay 2 accelerate= pay to be above everyone else = pay to win?

^ this

I understand wanting to "level" past people, but paying for it is retarded and is p2w. FFXIV had the right idea of it whereby, you got a ring that gave 30% exp (which everyone could get for free) upon reaching level 17 and doing the, Hall of the Novice, tasks. This is laughable.

so following your logic, how come we tolerate the headstart? those that get it are actually paying to get a HEADSTART>be above others. so why is this fine, but an xp boost P2W?

ThatOneMan eredeti hozzászólása:

What is getting an extra dungeon raid per day considered?

so far and according to what we know that's not a thing. they clearly stated such an item giving a+1 entry won't exist. so.

Nall Noa eredeti hozzászólása:

Unfortunately, Pay-to-win, Pay-to-accelerate, and Pay-For-Convneience, are all under the same umbrella.

They just have varying levels of offense/impact/community acceptance.

won't disagree with you here, still, at the end of the day, even if the guy with the wallet goes "faster than me" i can still get there by playing the game, what's the problem with that?
as long as you aren't FORCED to pay to get there yourself, if anything at least you are playing the damn game.

i'd prefer pay to accelerate/for convenience over a P2W one anyday.
not against you just quoting you here as it suited my point.

[Actionelly]

"Pay 2 Accelerate and Pay 2 Win are two different things."

And BOTH suck.

[Legion]

ChunksAhoy! eredeti hozzászólása:

Legion_Ent eredeti hozzászólása:

^ this

I understand wanting to "level" past people, but paying for it is retarded and is p2w. FFXIV had the right idea of it whereby, you got a ring that gave 30% exp (which everyone could get for free) upon reaching level 17 and doing the, Hall of the Novice, tasks. This is laughable.

They also sell insta-level 60 in the shop soo...just sayin'

which doesn't matter since pvp in that game is a solid joke, you can have 1 character that does EVERYTHING. They can also NOT BE PURCAHSED FOR CRAFTING CLASSES.

[{Parasite}]

Severan eredeti hozzászólása:

*
*Buying time vs buying power.

Buying time means you still have to invest time and use skill to get where you need to go. That is not pay 2 win. That is a convenience.

Buying power lets you skip the skill part and all of the time investment. Thats what pay 2 win is. If you get 15% more rep gain or honor gain or xp gain, that is just a time convenience.

I fully agree. I'm all for having a premium standard for those who all pay the same fee and get the same bonuses. It's better because my time is valuable and everyone has the choice to pay the flat fee or not. There is no way to keep pumping money in and get more bonuses, that levels the playing field while also making it more convenient for the players. Yet, there is a free option for those who want it.

For those who play very frequently, the benefits go beyond in that the development team has ongoing profit to allocate development funds from and the game has a better chance of being well tended to in the future. Plus, if I get 30-60 hours of enjoyment per month out of a $15 subscription, I should be more than happy.

[Chays]

Pay 2 Accelerate ............. no one want it here !!!!

that is a buy to play + premium + "cosmetic" cash shop game .

statement from neowiz was....
we do this game from free to play to buy to play + premium + cosmetic cash shop that we do not see any from this free to play muck.

Pay 2 Accelerate is free to play muck.

[Actionelly]

All the P2 whatever leads to drama and issues, and is the biggest mistake most devs make in MMO's.

Paying to get ahead creates a major issue for new players and loyal player's that have been there from day one. While these player's have put in a lot of time, effort and even paid sub's other's just continue to press the skip button with money in the cs. It doesn't even matter or a question of if it is fair.

If the devs have done their job right, then there should be no reason whatsoever in a B2P game to have need for these items. Guilds and other players will help others and this is what creates a solid community in an MMO. If you have a solid community, they will continue support the game for a long time.

Once you start adding these items to the cs, much of the player base starts falling far behind, it creates a lot of imbalance to where if you don't pay for these advances it starts to intefere with whether you're a viable player in a guild or group.

This then leads to all the drama, which then leads to people leaving and thus the devs deciding it's time to go F2P.

If you're going to be a B2P game then say that is what you are, if you're a B2P game with sub, then say that's what you are.

If you're going to be B2P game, with optional sub and a cs, then you should have said it from the start because as I said people are sick of this and it's obvious the devs know exactly what player's mean when they ask.

I've read the interviews with the devs so they aren't clueless on this issue.

[Genaro Matsuharu]

Wow, another term for the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Very creative. Grats.

[Ojipan Grimoire]

i wonder where people make up these things.

Never heard of Pay to accelerate.... anyways

For me P2W in overall is Paying to advance into the game. This is my logic

Hard items that are suppose to be hard to get is hard for a reason. But people don't have all day to get it so thus they throw money which thus now you are paying to avoid the "hard" part of getting these items.

This only include Enhancement or Perk that increase stats ratio on avatar or gears as they play an important role of the game, actually its pretty much 90% of the game and the other 10% is strategy/ Communication.

What i mean by Enchancement items in depth is.

Paying real money for tools that Increase Enchantment, Increase success rate, and avoid enchant failure. Are pay to win item because normally enhancement items are hard to come by so people bypass this buy spending money to get them faster which in theory by paying for enhancement item to get better gears = better stats comes down to P2W.

Or

Paying real money for perk such as stats boost.

Any sort of item that increase the avatar to become stronger by using real money is P2W.

Now people say well yeah i use money to enhance my gears but i still suck. P2W is only reflected toward using real money to skip some hard mechanic of the game in order to succeed. It does not reflect whether you are good or you just suck.The reason your spending money is to win.

It's no one fault that you still suck though your spending money to get beefy.

as far as exp boost, free travel, faster mounts these items are not P2W as they really do not play an important role as non of these reflect towards making your character beefy for a raid or boss fight.

So to summarize this. Anything that you pay for with real money just to increase your survivability against raids or bosses you're technically a P2W because your in theory PAYING TO WIN against a raid or boss. But how you effectively do it doesn't matter.

People need stop making excused for themselves when they clearly are using real money to enhance themselves and telling people no i am just paying to catch up.

Delusional.....

[Ky'aria]

sorakm eredeti hozzászólása:

Legion_Ent eredeti hozzászólása:

^ this

I understand wanting to "level" past people, but paying for it is retarded and is p2w. FFXIV had the right idea of it whereby, you got a ring that gave 30% exp (which everyone could get for free) upon reaching level 17 and doing the, Hall of the Novice, tasks. This is laughable.

so following your logic, how come we tolerate the headstart? those that get it are actually paying to get a HEADSTART>be above others. so why is this fine, but an xp boost P2W?

ThatOneMan eredeti hozzászólása:

What is getting an extra dungeon raid per day considered?

so far and according to what we know that's not a thing. they clearly stated such an item giving a+1 entry won't exist. so.

Nall Noa eredeti hozzászólása:

Unfortunately, Pay-to-win, Pay-to-accelerate, and Pay-For-Convneience, are all under the same umbrella.

They just have varying levels of offense/impact/community acceptance.

won't disagree with you here, still, at the end of the day, even if the guy with the wallet goes "faster than me" i can still get there by playing the game, what's the problem with that?
as long as you aren't FORCED to pay to get there yourself, if anything at least you are playing the damn game.

i'd prefer pay to accelerate/for convenience over a P2W one anyday.
not against you just quoting you here as it suited my point.

Oh no, I completely agree here! I'd rather have Pay-to-accelerate and Pay-For-Convenience over P2W any day.

I guess the point of it was just to say that since they are all under the same umbrella, I can understand why people would be upset to see any form of these 3 implemented when the company said it was straying from P2W elements.

Sadly though the community was fooling itself if it did not believe at least one of these categories would be present in a B2P game.

I cannot personally think of any B2P or F2P games that did not include elements from one of these 3 categories. They need ways to fund development, extra content and expansions.

Cosmetics, mounts etc aren't honestly a great way for regular, consistent income because they require time and resources to create and are a one time purchase. So once its been purchased they cannot make income off that player again without utilizing more resources to create new costumes etc.

Honestly, I expected this to happen when people voted for B2P. The only true way to avoid this is for the community to accept and understand P2P was created to solve this issue as it was guaranteed funds for the company.