Meteor Strike needs some WHAM-factor

[spencerws88]

I'm not seeing the merit of current meteor strike. FIVE COST for relatively little damage and massive plasma generation?

Firstly, I would love for a meteor to do respectable damage for the cost. Sunder has this thing outclassed and even better upgraded, and is totally free when played right!!

I'm intruiged by the plasma explosion, but... spending 5 ( I mean FIVE) energy to start the process of getting more energy is a strategy that will easily eat its own tail:

a. Having enough energy to cast it makes it largely redundant. The "Double energy", "Channel 1 plasma", or "turn all orbs to plasma" cards have much more bang for the buck than this one, especially upgraded, without tricky activation conditions.

b. Its continuous energy benefit either becomes an next-turn bonus of 9 energy in order to keep orbs flowing, or an ongoing 3 that seems wasteful b/c a deck that cares about meteor strike will have lots of energy-generating cards in order to play it, and less expensive cards to play as a result.

c. It's only advantage is that it does not exhaust, unlike the others. But at 5 energy...if you manage to use it twice and it pays for itself with suplus the second time, that only makes it a 1.5x Streamline that costs 3 more energy and leaves you with 4 more. Way too risky for the reward.

TLDR: The Defect's rare Meteor seems dissapointingly weak and conceptually conficting.

I would love for this card to have some WHAMness. Hitting all enemies would be a good start (though a bit close to hyper beam.) I read somewhere deep in the suggestions thread of a meteor that took 3 turns to hit after being played. A 2-3 turn delay and higher atk power actually seems pretty nice for a rare meteor. Something useful, interesting, and feels like "WHAM!!" when it falls.

Let me know what you all think. I'm really trying to appreciate this card, but "it has X specific use" really isnt gonna cut it. I'm also looking for better improvement ideas.

[Paranoia]

Meteor Strike should really only cost 4. As said, that much Plasma in a Deck able to even use Meteor Strike at 5 Energy cost has little reason to actually use it.

[spencerws88]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Meteor Strike should really only cost 4. As said, that much Plasma in a Deck able to even use Meteor Strike at 5 Energy cost has little reason to actually use it.

Yes, exactly! It needs more WHAM than just lowered cost.

[Cellidor]

Honestly? I'd love if it forgot plasma altogether and was just a 5 cost spell that, like you said, took 2-3 turns before it hit. That's be -amazing-. Costs 5, so you have to have the synergy or relics just to play it, doesn't do anything the turn you -do- play it, but then in 2-3 turns....like you said, WHAM.

Maybe it does something like 60 damage to all enemies, maybe it reduces the health of all enemies by half or 3/4 when upgraded making it good on bosses and big guys.

Or maybe if you go full into the "delayed attack" route, it could be something like a "meteor shower", an X costs card that reads: "Deal 10 times X damage to all enemies in X turns". So the more you pay, the bigger it gets, but the longer you have to wait for it to make its appearance. Now -that's- flashy!

[draigonic]

Originally posted by spencerws88:

I'm really trying to appreciate this card, but "it has X specific use" really isnt gonna cut it. I'm also looking for better improvement ideas.

So, you want to appreciate the card, but not if someone gives you a reason to appreciate the card? what?

Meteor Swarm is part of a specific set of 4 cards Defect has That I've identified:

Thunder Strike: Deals damage based on how many Lightning Orbs you've spawned. A win condition for Pure Lightning Builds.

Glacier: Deals damage based on how many Frost Orbs you've spawned. A win Condition for Pure Frost Builds.

Multi-Cast: Evokes your Primary Orb a ton of times. This one is less obvious, but the only orb type this is really worth using on is Dark. Lightning basically turns it into a weaker skewer+, Frost basically makes it a worse Reinforce Body, Plasma basically makes it a slightly better Double energy that doesn't exhaust, but costs you the most valuable orb type. A well charged Dark orb, on the other hand, can do upwards of 60 damage per energy. A win condition for Dark builds.

Meteor: What orb type is left? Plasma of course. A full board of ten plasma (not too hard with Flux Capacitor) generates ten extra energy so playing meteor swarm for 5 is doable. It then generates 3 plasma... evoking 3 plasma in turn, generating 6 energy. Combine with draw power, and you can infinitely cast meteor swarm until only ashes resides in your wake. Meteor swarm doesn't generate plasma because it thinks you need more energy later, it generates plasma so you can take more energy NOW, and does so ad infinitum with the right support (Prime is ideal Making it: Spend 5 energy, do 30 damage, gain 6 energy, draw 3 cards) If done with extra care, you don't even need ten orb slots. It can be done with 3, ten just gives more leeway.


Edit: BTW Snecko Eye, Madness and Enlightment make Meteor a joke card

[Lokuskt]

I disagree entirely. Meteor Strike is mostly fine as-is, could maybe do with a bit of a damage buff. Get a plasma deck going, or get Sneko Eye, and Meteor Strike will not only pay for itself, it will get you a net increase on energy. Combine this with Turbo, which is stupid good for its measly drawback, and you have more than enough energy each turn. Just like how Catalyst needs to be built arond, same thing with Meteor, you can't just slot it in any deck and expect it to work.

[Sinsling]

Hmmm...

Meteor
Cost 5
Deal 10 damage to target enemy 3(2) turns from now for each orb channeled this combat.

Just to fit the orb theme.

[Lokuskt]

Originally posted by Sinsling:

Meteor
Cost 5
Deal 10 damage to target enemy 3(2) turns from now for each orb channeled this combat.

Nah that just makes it worse than it already is. If anything make it like eviscerate where the cost goes down for each orb created that turn.

[spencerws88]

Originally posted by draigonic:

...

Meteor: What orb type is left? Plasma of course. A full board of ten plasma (not too hard with Flux Capacitor) generates ten extra energy so playing meteor swarm for 5 is doable. It then generates 3 plasma... evoking 3 plasma in turn, generating 6 energy. Combine with draw power, and you can infinitely cast meteor swarm until only ashes resides in your wake. Meteor swarm doesn't generate plasma because it thinks you need more energy later, it generates plasma so you can take more energy NOW, and does so ad infinitum with the right support (Prime is ideal Making it: Spend 5 energy, do 30 damage, gain 6 energy, draw 3 cards) If done with extra care, you don't even need ten orb slots. It can be done with 3, ten just gives more leeway.


Edit: BTW Snecko Eye, Madness and Enlightment make Meteor a joke card

Hey man, welcome to Slay the Spire, there's no need to strut. Some of us have knowledge of the game too. I just hit Asc 4 Awakened for 504 using multi-cast on a dark orb (with gold-plated cables.)

So in order to utilize meteor strike, you say I need to...

1.Have initial extra orb slots to generate energy soon (which come from 1 shop relic, 1 common card, or 1 rare card)
2. Generate some random orbs
3. Play flux capacitor for 3-10 energy per turn.
4. Play meteor for another 3 plasma that evoke for 6 energy...
5. ...So I can play my draw cards...
6. ...So I can draw a rare meteor card and play it again...to do some damage....

That's a bad combat plan.

I grant you that with Prime on top, it could work decently. But all those specific cards and sequenced steps for such a little benefit just makes my point. Why not acknowledge that the card is disappointing?

I'm aware of those snecko and colorless card gimmicks. Thing is, meteor is a rare card. No one would pick it without having those compliments already, but those compliments are hard enough to get without it, and are often much less useful without it. Trying to pair these things for energy generation is just not wise, excepting Snecko Eye which could be pretty good.

[Lokuskt]

Originally posted by spencerws88:

So in order to utilize meteor strike, you say I need to...

1.Have initial open orb slots to generate energy soon (which come from 1 shop relic, 1 common card, or 1 rare card)
2. Generate up to 10 random orbs
3. Play flux capacitor for 3-10 energy per turn.
4. Play meteor for ... another 3 plasma that evoke for 6 energy
5. ...So I can play my draw cards...
6. ...So I can draw a rare meteor card and play it again....
7. ...To do some damage....

Nah you're flat-out wrong here.
1. Play Turbo, a common card
2. Play Meteor Strike
3. if you don't have any other orbs and Turbo ain't upgraded, that's it, turn done, which can be lackluster. If not, though...
4. Play tons more cards with your remaining 6/3 energy, including potentially more meteor strikes to make even more energy to play even more meteor strikes to...

Well, you get the idea. There's more than one way to get the energy needed to make meteor strike work, and one of said ways is a common card that almost every deck can appreciate.

[spencerws88]

Originally posted by Lokuskt:

Nah you're flat-out wrong here.
1. Play Turbo, a common card
2. Play Meteor Strike
3. if you don't have any other orbs and Turbo ain't upgraded, that's it, turn done, which can be lackluster. If not, though...
4. Play tons more cards with your remaining 6/3 energy, including potentially more meteor strikes to make even more energy to play even more meteor strikes to...

Well, you get the idea. There's more than one way to get the energy needed to make meteor strike work, and one of said ways is a common card that almost every deck can appreciate.

Um, hello, I was quoting someone. But sure, lets consider that. IF your deck is such that you can EXPECT to combo those cards, why bother with meteor at all? You've got decent energy generation in your deck.

[robofish126]

Originally posted by spencerws88:

Um, hello, I was quoting someone. But sure, lets consider that. IF your deck is such that you can EXPECT to combo those cards, why bother with meteor at all? You've got decent energy generation in your deck.

Because a lot of the +Energy cost cards are limited or have negative side effects or whatnot. By comparison once you play Meteor you get +3 Energy a turn period so long as the orbs remain out, meanwhile playing Meteor is now deal 30 damage for free and gain 1 Energy.

[draigonic]

Originally posted by spencerws88:

So in order to utilize meteor strike, you say I need to...

1.Have initial extra orb slots to generate energy soon (which come from 1 shop relic, 1 common card, or 1 rare card)
2. Generate some random orbs
3. Play flux capacitor for 3-10 energy per turn.
4. Play meteor for another 3 plasma that evoke for 6 energy...
5. ...So I can play my draw cards...
6. ...So I can draw a rare meteor card and play it again...to do some damage....

That's a bad combat plan.

I grant you that with Prime on top, it could work decently. But all those specific cards and sequenced steps for such a little benefit just makes my point. Why not acknowledge that the card is disappointing?

I'm aware of those snecko and colorless card gimmicks. Thing is, meteor is a rare card. No one would pick it without having those compliments already, but those compliments are hard enough to get without it, and are often much less useful without it. Trying to pair these things for energy generation is just not wise, excepting Snecko Eye which could be pretty good.

Lets address this step by step:

1. If you're running orbs without plans in place to increase your orb slots, you've likely already got a bad deck in place (Unless running dark which doesn't need more than 3) Additionally I already said you don't need 10 orbs, it just makes it easier as it gives you more initial energy to work with. I literally said, in my original post, that 3 works as long as you're careful with your energy

2. Yes generate 'random' orbs. The key here, is that they don't have to actually be random, that's the best part. See, Each of the orbs has a 'passive effect' that you can use in the meantime, while you get moving, and many cards that make orbs have other effects (See I can be super condescending too) Use things like Glacier that improve your survivability while also generating orbs.

3. Yep, you're following along (Side note, there are other ways to generate plasma besides Flux capacitor, use some creativity: I simply said you need a full board of plasma to get the infinite going, not that you *had* to use flux capacitor to do so, just that flux was the simplest way to attain that)

4. Yes

5. Yes

6. Yes that's right, that's how infinites work: play meteor, redraw meteor, play meteor redraw meteor...

What part of this plan is bad, exactly?

1: Building Orb slots (Which I said wasn't necessary)
2: Generating orbs
3: Having Energy
4: Generating more energy while also doing damage
5: drawing cards
6: Repeating steps 4 and 5



You can almost rely on getting the madness event on act 3, and enlightment can be powerful without meteor, so taking it without a hint of meteor isn't a bad idea, same with snecko. These cards aren't in a vacuum, and the pieces that help meteor help other things. The fact that flux capacitor converts all orbs to plasma lets you convert a deck into a meteor swarm deck on the fly is why I mentioned it. Flux and Prime both work without meteor, but meteor converts them into a crazy strong combo.

Will you be able to do this every run? obviously not. Sometimes you just can't make Meteor work thanks to just not having the pieces. But that's true for a bunch of cards. Meteor just locks you out harder by having a natural cost that you likely can't hit without help, (like BFB and Evis) but not having any stated method of lowering it so you have to do the work of making it work yourself.

Would Meteor be better if it did more damage? yes, but literally every card that does damage would be better by doing more

[spencerws88]

Originally posted by draigonic:

...

What part of this plan is bad, exactly?

1: Building Orb slots (Which I said wasn't necessary)
2: Generating orbs
3: Having Energy
4: Generating more energy while also doing damage
5: drawing cards
6: Repeating steps 4 and 5

Ok, so I tried to represent your orb qualifications, sorry if I didnt succeed. Orbs aside, what you're saying is that IF you can construct a deck with some orb generation, orb slots, plasma/energy generation, hyper card draw, AND meteor, you can loop meteor infinately and win. I called that a bad combat plan b/c I didnt see that you were trying for an infinite. I didnt see that b/c I doubt you could loop that infinitely, or even once without some crazy card draw/removal on top of everything else. How do you block before you get started? Those block cards cost energy too.

Besides, that really isnt the joy of having a meteor, in my opinion. Though your point abt madness is fair.

[Cellidor]

That's pretty interesting, I hadn't considered those methods of making Meteor work out. Something else I'm considering now too is that Meteor would probably be good in a deck with that spell that does 24 to all but loses you focus. If you've got your plasm train going and don't care about other orbs, you could freely meteor and beam each turn along with everything else for crazy damage.