Runic Pyramid Synergy Issue With The Watcher

[non]

So I was playing the Watcher this morning and I ran into something that feels...wrong.

I managed to get Runic Pyramid and I cast Establishment in my next fight. Since she's new:

Establishment

• {1 Cost} When a card is retained reduce its cost by 1.

Since Runic Pyramid effectively retains the hand of last turn, should Runic Pyramid proc this Power? I feel it should, considering the playstyle of the Watcher suits waiting for the right hand and then laying the smackdown in one go. Granted, this would be an extremely powerful combo but it also it's incredibly risky so I feel it would be more than fair in the current game.

What say you?

[TripSin]

I think that would be way too strong. I think it's good that establishment only affects cards with the retain tag as runic pyramid is already super strong on her.

[non]

Originally posted by TripSin:

I think that would be way too strong. I think it's good that establishment only affects cards with the retain tag as runic pyramid is already super strong on her.

Well I feel that it would be extremely potent but it also comes with a really high risk since it's really easy to overflow your hand with how much card draw she naturally has and you also have to commit to your hand a turn in advance or more, depending on the cost. It's not actually that much different from the way she currently plays but it extends the range of cards she can apply the Retain-related buffs to.

It's not as powerful than Corruption + Dead Branch builds on The Ironclad or Dead Branch + Shiv builds on The Silent and that's been in the game for ages.

[Cap of Weird]

I agree with you. I'd love to try it out and see just how powerful it is.

[Etan5799]

I don't truly believe that it would be too op. By mid and late game, good decks routinely play their entire hands already. So not playing cards in order to get a cost reduction in the next turn plays into the archetype of risk/reward the Watcher already has. Furthermore, taking runic pyramid usually entails not taking an energy up item. Best case scenario with an upgraded Establishment in your deck, how often are you going to save more energy over a fight (subtracting the energy you are not using so you can proc the synergy and the opportunity cost of of having to wait to play your cards) than 1 extra energy per turn?

Btw, I understand that this argument is overly simplistic and you would need to factor in the multiplicative aspect of Wrath stance which I don't have the foggiest idea how you would do.

Regardless, if the designers don't want the synergy to work, the tool tip should be more explicit at the very least.

[TripSin]

yeah, the other characters have broken combos so i guess she can have some as well

[MoronicCinamun]

establishment says it is based on retain, which is a keyword
Runic Pyramid simply skips the discard, it doesn't retain anything
seems to work fine to me

[EagleWiz]

Runic pyramid is already OP with divinity builds

[jacobpaige]

Honestly, I think it should synergize and had come to post this same topic. That said, Runic Pyramid isn't technically Retaining things. It effectively does the same thing, but it uses a different mechanic. I can understand if the devs consider this to be enough reason to not have them work together, even if I really don't agree with it and feel its completely counter-intuitive.

[Gentlest Giant]

Both of the elements are individually strong, neither strictly needing the synergy the other provides.
I think that's reason enough to consider adding further synergy at such high magnitude to be bonkers.

[brekko]

Important to remember in card games that card text is almost always explicit, just because a card stays in your hand doesn't mean it's "retained". That is an ability unique to the watcher, even if it's effect ends up being similar.

[non]

Originally posted by brekkoh:

Important to remember in card games that card text is almost always explicit, just because a card stays in your hand doesn't mean it's "retained". That is an ability unique to the watcher, even if it's effect ends up being similar.

Of course, and this is mostly about that wording issue. However when there's two functions in the game that are functionally identical but aren't the same it's disorienting. In addition the Watcher doesn't seem to have the best At-Will energy generation compared to the other characters (Unless you manage to play Devi Form which is honestly a superbly broken power) and so changing the keyword to benefit them makes sense to me.

[Zu]

Originally posted by non:

The Watcher doesn't seem to have the best At-Will energy generation compared to the other characters

https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Collect_(BETA)
https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Deus_Ex_Machina_(BETA)
https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Vault_(BETA)

Read:
Largely better doppelganger / seeing red. Not as "at will" as you might like, I suppose.
Adrenaline that's not draw-dependent.
Literally breaking the rules.

And let's not get started on how leaving calm usually breaks even with entering calm, makes for a ridiculous energy spike when switching to divinity, produces a net positive through a reasonably potent boss relic, and it even procs mental fortress and flurry.

[Ichthyic]

nope. to be consistent with the rest of StS cards, this power should ONLY work on cards with the word "retain" on them, period.

[non]

Originally posted by Ichthyic:

nope. to be consistent with the rest of StS cards, this power should ONLY work on cards with the word "retain" on them, period.

Well of course, but the issue here isn't that I'm confused on the wording. The issue is I feel the wording should be changed to mirror fundamentally equivalent mechanics and the discussion of how balanced that would be.