Neow Starting bonuses

[Blurred Aspect]

Finding the game quite fun, difficult but worthwhile once you get a good run going.

Will say this though, my biggest complaint is regarding the Neow starting bonus system. I'll iterate that the mechanic seems okay in many ways as a balanced risk/ reward system (excluding obvious combos like transform 2 cards but gain a curse) however what irks me most about it is the way it's implemented as a kind of reward for clearing an act 1 boss and denied if you die beforehand.

This is problematic in Ascension particularly after the elites and normal enemies are upgraded due to both the Goblin Nob and the Lagavulin (which is also the name of a whiskey but I digress). Both are extremely powerful enemies that you can't always avoid and can end a run if you have the wrong build to start (Goblin beats skill/stall heavy decks while Lagavulin is on a timer with Soul Siphon). Given the amount of control you have over your deck before this point it presents a problem of having to get a strong deck rather quickly, which given the RNG nature is not always possible.

The reason I'm bringing it up as pointless is because if someone wants the starting bonus that badly they'll just keep pushing to get to the act I boss and then abandon the run, all the current system does is take agency away from the player and waste time for those wanting the starting bonus or trying to introduce variety into their runs.

My suggestion is then this. If you want Neow to give you a starting bonus you complete the game once with that character, or alternatively encounter the Cursed Tome event and complete it, and then it is permanently unlocked with an option to ignore the bonus if you so choose. This way it will serve three purposes:
1. It will avoid new players getting confounded with additional information that they likely don't need until they have a firmer grasp of their character and how the bonuses could affect them.
2. It will allow the base game to be more open and fun once you clear it for the first time, the training wheels are off so to speak and you can then feel free to experiment to your hearts content.
3. If people want to experience the game as it was when they didn't have the bonuses they now have the choice to do so. This is not currently an option as you either get two small bonuses or a large bonus with a caveat or a relic swap.

Like I say, love the way the game is running so far, have sunk around 70 or so hours into it, just want to help the progress of the game as it's still early access

Looking forward to the introduction of the third character at some point, my guess is that they're going to be a magic type or spellsword given the current Warrior-like and Rogue-like characters at the current time. Would be interesting to see a character that conserves energy for a huge spell or has summons of their own.

[Shovel Priest]

If something like this gets implemented, there *needs* to be something to prevent this gameplay loop:

1.) Gamble on a Neow choice
2.) Neow gives you a suboptimal result
3.) Abandon Run immediately
4.) Repeat until Neow gives you a high-quality result

If we want to be okay with the idea of rolling your random start as many times as you want before actually starting a run, at least make it more convenient to do so.

However, I'm still in the camp of having the Act 1 boss as a gatekeeper for the blessing, meaning your random blessing is what you're stuck with and you have to at least put an effort into making it work. If there's some other available test for "put in a good faith effort", I'm all for that as well, but I personally don't like the idea of being able to essentially choose *exactly* what your Neow blessing is in the context of a normal run.

[Blurred Aspect]

@Shovel Priest
It's a fair statement that someone could just game the system to make it so that they never get a bad result, and certainly it would seem there are many who would try this just to do so. I'll admit I don't have an answer for what to do about re-rollers, that's always going to be a problem, much like someone simply modding the game or exploiting a good/bad bug to get optimal scoring is.

However I would ask this in return, what does the Act I boss as a gatekeeper of Neow's blessing add in terms of gameplay? The only thing I can see is the idea of preventing rerolling, which fair enough is a valid concern, but it also takes a lot away from those who don't want to plainly cheat the system. Putting in detractions to normal players to avoid cheating has never really worked as a balancing tool in my opinion, you're either going to end up with a wooden experience that plays the same every time, or there will be folks who game it.

People tend to play for fun, and adding a system which effectively punishes players in future runs for bad RNG in an RNG based system is inherently flawed. We want a challenge, but bad numbers happen to everyone regardless of skill when you can't choose your deck composition or draw tools. I'm not suggesting that we start building our own decks from scratch (although a point buy based game mode where you can "buy" cards from a select pool could be interesting).

I'd acknowledge in this context that the literal interpretation is, "It's a blessing don't complain about free stuff" but that seems a bit heavy handed for what should be a game. Also it would bring into question the entire point of the blessing mechanic in the first place, is it meant to be a reward or is it something that adds to the overall experience of the game?

Lastly I would say that unless it particularly matters to you personally, in which case to each his own, but why does it matter that someone is taking the time to RNG their way to a blessing? The way I see it there's nothing in the current pool that is powerful enough to decide a run, but it feels to me like the mechanic gets wasted if it doesn't come about because you got railroaded into a bad fight early on. If it's for leaderboard purposes then fair enough but that is another issue entirely that needs fixed.

Also thank you for taking the time to honestly respond, it's good to have secondary opinions in what could be considered a contentious issue, so thanks for the input. :)

[Sinsling]

I have to agree with shovel here. There are relics you could specifically reroll for that can define an entire run from the start. Dead branch comes to mind. A starting energy relic of a person's preferred debuff. Blue candle.

Outside of crashing straight into a lagaluvin/goblin hob due to not having a delayed elite path should really be the only rng killers of a run. 4/5 times that I don't atleast face the act 1 boss it is because I deliberately, and consistently, choose to do the 3-4 elites. I'd say 20% of non-suicidal runs not making the act 1 mile stone isn't horrible considering I'm still learning good pick sets.

[PedroEX]

Originally posted by Shovel Priest:

If something like this gets implemented, there *needs* to be something to prevent this gameplay loop:

1.) Gamble on a Neow choice
2.) Neow gives you a suboptimal result
3.) Abandon Run immediately
4.) Repeat until Neow gives you a high-quality result

If we want to be okay with the idea of rolling your random start as many times as you want before actually starting a run, at least make it more convenient to do so.

However, I'm still in the camp of having the Act 1 boss as a gatekeeper for the blessing, meaning your random blessing is what you're stuck with and you have to at least put an effort into making it work. If there's some other available test for "put in a good faith effort", I'm all for that as well, but I personally don't like the idea of being able to essentially choose *exactly* what your Neow blessing is in the context of a normal run.

How about for every X points you get in a run you obtain a "Neow credit", that can be used to get his blessing ?

[Blurred Aspect]

Originally posted by Sinsling:

I have to agree with shovel here. There are relics you could specifically reroll for that can define an entire run from the start. Dead branch comes to mind. A starting energy relic of a person's preferred debuff. Blue candle.

Okay I'll concede the point on choosing a relic, I would personally prefer medbox over blue candle though due to wound stacking and combine with evolve on Ironclad, but why does another player's run matter outside of leaderboard? I would agree with it being harder on leaderboard or daily runs, but as mentioned previously there are greater problems with leaderboard at the current time such as people modding their scores higher than the current cheater penalty can register (or bypassing it completely).

Also defining your run is great and all, Dead Branch sees amazing use in either Exhaust Ironclad or shiv Silent, but you still need the cards and there are few methods available outside of trying to delay for as long as possible to get anything close to an ideal deck. My favorite reference is an infinite deck using the unceasing top, on paper it is a gamebreaker, but in practice you can't make an infinite just happen. You need to both survive long enough to get the 0 cost cards you need or you exhaust everything but your 0 cost cards. Even after all that you have a 33% chance of encountering and usually quickly followed by being curbstomped by TimeKeeper.

In summary it's more often your deck that matters I find, not your relic. (Although I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion based on my experiences.)

Originally posted by Sinsling:

4/5 times that I don't atleast face the act 1 boss it is because I deliberately, and consistently, choose to do the 3-4 elites. I'd say 20% of non-suicidal runs not making the act 1 mile stone isn't horrible considering I'm still learning good pick sets.

I have to say I've been guilty of that once or twice as I get the greedy urges to take just one more relic before the boss, but more commonly it's Goblin Nob that takes me out before I can get my deck ready on Ascension due to the lack of tools to change it. I could hit every ? space on the road to an enforced elite encounter and still get nothing to stop me being either primarily skill based or having enough nuke power to take him down. It's those kind of things that frustrate me as a player. The notion that I already had a bad run, and now I'm getting further limitations due to having a bad run seems absurd.

Although I would say that mad cackling ensues the moment I hit the Sentry elites as they are predictable enough to paste into the floor no matter what your deck, so long as you don't just let them build dazes on you. It's just Goblin and Lagavulin that seem to be very hard deck checks usually when you can't have had many opportunities to begin specialising.

Originally posted by PedroEX:

How about for every X points you get in a run you obtain a "Neow credit", that can be used to get his blessing ?

That I would agree as a more fair system, although we would have to discuss whether there should be a hard limit on these "Neow Credits" and if the awarding system is based on score, then what score is applicable? Should those who cheat to gain infinite score just lose all their credits?
Only issue I could see at the current time is that there is no hard and fast rules for what gives you score points. I know there are some for slaying eltes at every level, and some for hoarding gold or having a specialised deck with no dupes, but then it seems like a chore to grind up some of that score to get a random bonus which may or may not give you more score.

Also I'd still press the point that maybe for casual play we shouldn't press on people that they must have X amount of luck to gain a random bonus. If you want a challenge then fine, that's what leaderboards or challenge runs are for and perhaps the neow bonus should just be removed for those modes (as it already is in the current daily challenge).

So as an amendment to previous I would put forward this:

When a character has completed a run for the first time, they unlock the blessing of Neow for future runs.

Neow's Blessing occurs in the base experience, allowing you to slightly alter or benefit a run.
Neow's Blessing can be ignored if you wish to experience the game as originally intended.

Neow will not offer a blessing in competitive or community events like leaderboard or daily run trials, instead offering either the trial at hand or nothing

Does this seem fairer?

Also thanks for the open communication, keep the ideas flowing and I'm sure we'll be able to refine this into something at least more acceptable to all parties involved :D

[Sinsling]

I suppose you could make it so there is an ignore option and then make the 2 positives available. I do sometimes like picking up the remove 1 card...

[PedroEX]

Before the wall of text, I just want to suggest that if the problem only lies in "Re-rolling" for score a much simpler solution would be as follows:

If a player have lost without reaching the boss, an additonal option would appear when neow is speaking: Beg for blessing.
If the player click on this he will get the blessing as usual and also get a modifier of -500 on the score. We can call it Beggar or Prideless or something better.

Also:

Originally posted by Shovel Priest:

However, I'm still in the camp of having the Act 1 boss as a gatekeeper for the blessing, meaning your random blessing is what you're stuck with and you have to at least put an effort into making it work. If there's some other available test for "put in a good faith effort", I'm all for that as well

If the player doesn't care about score, there isn't much room for positive or negative incentives and in this case I agree that the current model is the best or at least very good.

Now the "in-depth" explanation of the credits

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

Only issue I could see at the current time is that there is no hard and fast rules for what gives you score points.

Winning normal encounters, elites and bosses, anything else is just an extra. Sounds pretty simple to me.

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

That I would agree as a more fair system, although we would have to discuss whether there should be a hard limit on these "Neow Credits" and if the awarding system is based on score, then what score is applicable? Should those who cheat to gain infinite score just lose all their credits?

If cheaters are a problem we can just change to something like : earn 1 credit for every 3 monsters you defeat.
Well the system is kinda pointless if a hard limit is necessary, at best we could have a hard limit of how many credits you can earn per run.
The overall idea here is that you can Re-roll your bonus sometimes but not to forever.

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

but then it seems like a chore to grind up some of that score to get a random bonus which may or may not give you more score.

Is only a chore if you need huge scores, I was thinking something like ~200 score per credit.

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

Neow will not offer a blessing in competitive or community events like leaderboard or daily run trials, instead offering either the trial at hand or nothing

The problem here from my understanding, is that the devs want the blessing as part of the competitive environment but don't want it to be exploited.

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

Also thanks for the open communication, keep the ideas flowing and I'm sure we'll be able to refine this into something at least more acceptable to all parties involved :D

you're welcome.

[Blurred Aspect]

Originally posted by PedroEX:

Before the wall of text, I just want to suggest that if the problem only lies in "Re-rolling" for score a much simpler solution would be as follows:

If a player have lost without reaching the boss, an additonal option would appear when neow is speaking: Beg for blessing.
If the player click on this he will get the blessing as usual and also get a modifier of -500 on the score. We can call it Beggar or Prideless or something better.

Whose wall of text? Yours or mine? :P I apologise if it's me, my replies tend to be... verbose. Unfortunately that's what happens when you combine a long standing love of literature with an approximately infinite time to think of a response (you can probably tell I'm great fun at parties too XD).

That seems to be a fun way of doing it, would dissuade people from simply re-rolling for score as it would show up on their record if quoted. After all, you may have the largest score but you'll have the mark of someone who fixed things to get their way and have to work much harder for it.

Originally posted by PedroEX:

The problem here from my understanding, is that the devs want the blessing as part of the competitive environment but don't want it to be exploited.

Daily runs are definitely exempt. Neow gives you your set bonus/ detraction and sends you off on your merry quest to die horribly.

In the standard mode, yes, I could see that given that it does have a best run/ best winstreak/fastest victory.

But actually thinking on those lines I notice that it is reset weekly. In which case there's no overall best score of all time to compete for, someone would have to be rerolling every week to get top score and then do that again ad infinitum for as long as the leaderboard exists.
If someone really cares about their leaderboard position then they will be doing runs over and over again as well, which honestly makes them no different from rerollers, just slower.
In which case I would like to hear a provision from the "For" camp for what the difference is if it ultimately is reset in a week.

I'll thus state again that at the current time I don't see there being anything ultra competitive about standard mode. If there was a community event with a big trophy then I would argue that Neow shouldn't be a factor at all, much like daily runs which you can't abuse him for. But for casual play? It doesn't make sense to lock a mechanic behind a luck wall just because someone might game it in an environment where it's not that important if they even do so. If it doesn't directly impact another player's runs then I don't get why it's important to be prevented.

@PedroEX I'll address your proposal for the Neow system in the next comment as I want the ability to remove it should you deem it unworthy, incorrect, or simply wish to make your own statement regarding it.

[Blurred Aspect]

@PedroEX
For the following quote I would like to iterate that I tried to condense it into its main points, feel free to shoot me down if this is not what you proposed, but is this how you want the Neow credits to work? I have replaced my quotes with descriptions in bold as otherwise it gets messy.

_____________

Neow credits as proposed by PedroEX

Now the "in-depth" explanation of the credits

The Mechanic
"I was thinking something like ~200 score per credit."

Getting Score?
"Winning normal encounters, elites and bosses, anything else is just an extra. Sounds pretty simple to me."

Hard Limits?
"Well the system is kinda pointless if a hard limit is necessary, at best we could have a hard limit of how many credits you can earn per run."

Purpose
"The overall idea here is that you can Re-roll your bonus sometimes but not to forever."

Cheating or gaming the system?
"If cheaters are a problem we can just change to something like : earn 1 credit for every 3 monsters you defeat."
_______________

I would accept it as a possible solution as it addresses the current problem of rerolling to whatever you want as put forward by Shovel Knight. But I would still propose an ignore option for the blessing so you don't have to spend your credits if you don't want to. Otherwise this is just as acceptable an option as simply removing the requirement for the Act I boss to me.

[PedroEX]

Originally posted by Blurred Aspect:

I would accept it as a possible solution as it addresses the current problem of rerolling to whatever you want as put forward by Shovel Knight. But I would still propose an ignore option for the blessing so you don't have to spend your credits if you don't want to. Otherwise this is just as acceptable an option as simply removing the requirement for the Act I boss to me.

We are both guilty of creating the wall of text, not that's a bad thing :^)
You got everything correct on the system and I really agree with everything else you said in the last 2 comments.

Of course this just an idea and maybe the devs can come up with something better.

Ultimately, I believe the game would be better if we were able to take more risks in the act1, specially in ascension mode, and get less punished for it at least in a non-competitive environment.